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League_Girl
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26 Aug 2020, 2:07 pm

blazingstar wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Did we not read the same guidelines? I've no issue with rules against racism, but declaring non-racist words to be racist is a slope of the slippery variety. And including the phrase "in any context" in a rule that would rely heavily on context to determine wether something was racist or not is thoughtless and counter-productive. And that's not even getting into the expectation of deference in points 3 and 4.


Everyone has to make their own decisions based on their own integrity. I am not at all criticizing people who feel they cannot serve. I understand completely. Right now, I'd still like to do what I can and I think of it not so much as enforcing Alex's rules but in protecting the community in spite of the rules. If that makes sense. Because Alex does not moderate, he said, it would be up to the moderators to make those decisions. In a sense it gives too much power to the moderators, but if we can get good ones, and magz, teach and wolf would be great ones, I think we can make a difference.

I could be wrong. I frequently am. But I am willing to try.



I wonder if it would be a good idea to have any people of color to be mods. Have a diversity of them.


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 2:10 pm

Also I will add that the use of words like this is not new and it's been long regarded as racist. This is not some new "liberal spin" or redefining of racism .

alex wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Quote:
These rioters are nothing but wild animals. They need to be shot for setting buildings and vehicles on fire and for looting. Just because they don't agree with the outcome of a verdict does not give them the right to be dumb asses. Why do black people act so out of control when something does not go their way? I am in no way racist, but blacks act like the world owes them.


This bit is racist because of the last two lines, not because it includes the word "animals". Even the first sentence alone wouldn't be racist as it would be describing the action of rioting with no mention of the race of the rioters.


Plus, you included the word "thug" under racist words, even though that word is a Hindi loan-word that has no actual racial component but rather describes a type of criminal.


Alex wrote:
I'm kind of shocked to hear people defending poster's right to say things like that without being called out as racist or policing how it's done.


You have had it explained to you in detail that that is not the issue.


Seriously stop. This is your last warning. How hard is it to understand that people use words without racist definitions or originally racist connotations in order to say racist things without appearing as racist as they would have if they just stuck to the n word.

Look up monkey or ape. The dictionary definitions are specific types of animals. It doesn't mention the fact that there's a long racist history of using those terms to describe black people.


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magz
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26 Aug 2020, 2:11 pm

Alex, did you read any of my comments or is discussing racism more interesting to you?


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 2:20 pm

magz wrote:
Alex, did you read any of my comments or is discussing racism more interesting to you?

Yes although you spoke in metaphors so I'm not entirely sure what it means.

As far as my guidelines go, they clarify the fact that people should be able to speak more freely when calling out racism on the site. This is a broadening of permitted speech. I'm not sure how that makes the site more of a clean lawn. If anything that seems like it would make the site more like a forest with diversity and freedom.

Clarifying the fact that racist terms and terms that are used in racist ways are not allowed might minimize the ability of some people to speak freely but they can chose better words that won't hurt marginalized races.


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magz
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26 Aug 2020, 2:27 pm

It makes it easier to dismiss others as "racist".
Anyone anyhow connected to any form of right wing can be called a racist, nazi, white supremacist, etc. and dismissed as such.
That's where you lose diversity.


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aghogday
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26 Aug 2020, 2:30 pm

Examples of Covert Racism:

The Way White Men Used
to Call Black Men; Even Their Elders, 'Boy';
'They' Still Do in Some Instances, When in Positions of Authority;

For Those of Us Who Grew Up Around this Racism, it's NOT Covert to us at all.

Might Not be as Obvious, if One Did not live here when it happened/Happens for Many Years.

Current 'Top of the Pile' Example:

When Trump Called Members of the NFL
Son's of B's, Kneeling Before the National Anthem And Flag
for "Black Lives Matter"; Most Everyone Who is From the Deep
South; And Been around here for any Length of Decades; Listened
And Understood His Tone Reflecting the Same Racist Tone AND INTENTION
AS When a White Man
Calls A Black
Man, 'Boy';
Like He is
'Something' 'He'
Scraped off His Shoe;

Meh; Now 'He' often Calls Him 'Son-in-Law'...

Times are A Changing, indeed they surely are...

Not Everyone is Happy With it; but the Melanin of
the World is Changing Again...

Bottom Line; No ifs ands or Buts;
Donald Trump Proved without a
'Shadow of a Doubt'

He was indeed
A Hardened Racist that Day;
How did 'We' Know; 'Cognitive Empathy'
Indeed, for 'We' Walked in the Shoes of Black Folks that Day...

Yes, This
is possible;
it Happens
For Some Folks
Most Every Day of
Their Life in CG Ways...

But ya See, it Works the other Way
Cognitive Empathy for Why Some
Folks Are indeed 'Mind Blind' to it all...

And surely not, Specific to the Autism Spectrum Either;

Cognitive Empathy

Takes Life long practice...

One Doesn't 'Get it' as
Much Passive in front of 'Screens'...

This is an Excellent Environment
to Learn/Do; Kudo's for the Opportunity to gain more...


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 2:42 pm

magz wrote:
Alex, did you read any of my comments or is discussing racism more interesting to you?

And honestly the fact that you would say "is discussing racism more interesting to you" seriously troubles me. I mean, i don't want to be discussing racism. Racism is disgusting and unpleasant to even think about. If you think this is just an interest and not a matter of life and death for black people living in my country, you're contributing to the problem. Anyone who trivializes this issue is contributing to the problem, whether they're aware of it or not. I am sure I contributed to the problem myself in many ways by not being as active as I should have been in stopping it here on WP in the past but I won't let that continue.

You may live somewhere else but people in america read your comment and think "oh yeah alex is too interested in something unimportant, he should listen to a white woman's analogy about a forest because it's clearly way more important that racism.

As white people, we need to all make a concerted effort to be anti-racist. Please do some reading and educate yourself on these issues. Glib statements like yours only contribute to trivializing real issues of people dying at the hands of police brutality and racially motivated hate crimes.

And also it's just so wrong to describe it as an interest of mine. I wish I didn't even have to talk about racism ever. I hate talking about racism. It makes me sick even thinking about it. It's not an interest in any way... It's something I'd prefer not to think about, especially here on WP.

The idea that this is an interest and not a moral imperative is so off base, I just can't believe people are acting like everything is ok, saying "racism isn't big a problem here," when people are dying and being treated as less than because of the color of their skin. It's pervasive in america. It's a systemic problem and the only way for it to go away is to actively be anti-racist.

And i'm sacrificing things in fighting against racism on WP because I know a lot of folks will probably end up leaving the site because they don't feel comfortable having their own racism exposed. It's not in my best interests to do this but that's how racism thrives. Those who benefit from it don't want to speak up...

And then we have members justifying white fragility with the excuse of "autism" as if that somehow makes it ok and making it seem like I'm somehow bad to be permitting these uncomfortable discussions that we as a society all need to have.

Quote:
It makes it easier to dismiss others as "racist".
Anyone anyhow connected to any form of right wing can be called a racist, nazi, white supremacist, etc. and dismissed as such.
That's where you lose diversity.


Where in these guidelines does it say it's ok to call someone a nazi? this is the strawman argument that's so dangerous because obviously nazi is a ideology people ascribe to. It's different from racism which can be unconscious. Nazis know they're nazis as far as I know. They may deny it but it isn't the same at all and the idea that people will be allowed to call each other nazis is literally just people making up something that has no bearing in the reality of how I want this site to run. I've said repeatedly that it's not going to be ok to go around calling people racists as an attack based on no evidence of racism.


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 2:43 pm

Also being right wing does not automatically make it ok to call you any of those things, even racist.


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magz
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26 Aug 2020, 3:03 pm

I was teasing you to make you adress what I was writing. I was successful.

I don't think racism is "something unimportant", especially where you live. It's a bit different where I live because here ethnicities are defined by language not ancestry but that's off topic. Treating people worse because of how they look is outrageous and things that are going on in the US are unbelievable. I'm all for the message of Black Lives Matter. They do.

I'm glad you admit that being right wing does not automatically make it ok to call you any of those things, even racist.
That's why "everyone who supports Trump 2020" is not automatically "white supremacist". Actually, one of currently more active WP members is Black and supports Trump 2020.

Thank you for responding me. I hope we can ultimately agree because I believe we both want the best - an inclusive, welcoming place, free of blind hate but embracing civil disagreement.


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 3:15 pm

Thank you for responding I appreciate you reading and explaining your thoughts.

I don’t think what I said is likely 100% true. I probably should have used the word racist. And even then there are likely people who vote for trump for other reasons. Perhaps doing that is still racist because they’re not condemning it but that’s less obvious then the clear cases. Still it’s not an attack on a specific person and it’s something that people can and do say in political discussions

Obviously I know and am friends with trump supporters and while I certainly can see their racism, they don’t really believe they’re racist and wouldn’t be considered white supremacists.

Similarly someone might say all liberals are communists and obviously that’s not true either.

And while I’d prefer things to stay civil and for people to be as respectful as possible, sometimes we won’t be able to stop things from crossing the line. As long as people try their best to keep the attitude positive and constructive, those things will likely not cause the whole community to devolve into chaos.


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magz
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26 Aug 2020, 4:09 pm

I know. We need to give some leeway for strong emotions but not let things escalate to poisonous level.

Thank you. I withdraw my withdrawal.


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TheRobotLives
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26 Aug 2020, 9:43 pm

if she changes her mind, magz would make a good mod because I think she's a scientist, and she's very intelligent

When you read her posts, you can see puts a lot of thought into them.


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 10:11 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
if she changes her mind, magz would make a good mod because I think she's a scientist, and she's very intelligent

When you read her posts, you can see puts a lot of thought into them.

She is a moderator though


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26 Aug 2020, 10:19 pm

alex wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
if she changes her mind, magz would make a good mod because I think she's a scientist, and she's very intelligent

When you read her posts, you can see puts a lot of thought into them.

She is a moderator though

Her initial post of "I hereby withdraw my application to wrongplanet.net moderator team" is confusing then.

I interpreted the word "application" to mean she had to apply to be moderator.

Oh, so she's withdrawing as moderator, and not withdrawing an application she submitted.


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26 Aug 2020, 10:30 pm

She wasn't a moderator. She JUST became one, after the discussion in this thread. Hurrah! :)


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26 Aug 2020, 11:27 pm

alex wrote:
magz wrote:
Alex, did you read any of my comments or is discussing racism more interesting to you?

Yes although you spoke in metaphors so I'm not entirely sure what it means.

As far as my guidelines go, they clarify the fact that people should be able to speak more freely when calling out racism on the site. This is a broadening of permitted speech. I'm not sure how that makes the site more of a clean lawn. If anything that seems like it would make the site more like a forest with diversity and freedom.

Clarifying the fact that racist terms and terms that are used in racist ways are not allowed might minimize the ability of some people to speak freely but they can chose better words that won't hurt marginalized races.


Instead of humiliating someone for an honest mistake, wouldn't it be better to PM them and explain the problem?
Too many people use the public forums to "Power Trip" on others, in a sanctimonious way.
This happened often in the PPR forum when I used to go there.


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