Is it time for a zero tolerance policy on hate speech?

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thinkinginpictures
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02 Jan 2022, 8:55 am

Cornflake wrote:
The problem, thinkinginpictures, as we've discussed at length - is the way you sometimes phrase your disagreements and as I've said, I understand that your intention is always to avoid posting hate speech or antisemitism. I should also stress that none of the moderators think any worse of you in these situations.


Thanks, Cornflake/admin.

I do have a lot of issues in communication.
I don't know if this is an ASD thing or not?



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02 Jan 2022, 9:01 am

Neither do I, mate - but I do know you are welcome here.


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maycontainthunder
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02 Jan 2022, 9:11 am

Cornflake wrote:
There is very rarely a black-n-white tickbox solution to unravelling these communication issues to the satisfaction of those involved.


Though I understand this when these posts are publicly visible and you get someone abusing the rules of debate to post subtle or not so subtle transphobic, homophobic and racist things there is a problem with the debate rule.

In the cold light of day the reason I started this thread is because I was pissed that HeroOfHyrule had been driven off this site.

I hope we don't lose anyone else because of a small number of narrow minded, intolerant people.


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HighLlama
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02 Jan 2022, 9:16 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
I hope we don't lose anyone else because of a small number of narrow minded, intolerant people.


I think part of the problem is some posters like starting political threads with the intent to provoke, rather than understand. Also, if one of us starts a (political) thread with the certainty our view is right, then this only leads to contention instead of discussion. Some people here never want anyone to disagree with them, but forget this is a place for equal interactions.



maycontainthunder
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02 Jan 2022, 9:26 am

HighLlama wrote:
maycontainthunder wrote:
I hope we don't lose anyone else because of a small number of narrow minded, intolerant people.


I think part of the problem is some posters like starting political threads with the intent to provoke, rather than understand. Also, if one of us starts a (political) thread with the certainty our view is right, then this only leads to contention instead of discussion. Some people here never want anyone to disagree with them, but forget this is a place for equal interactions.


I agree. PPR is notoriously toxic at the best of times. In the run up to the US elections every other thread on the site was political and full of aggression as both sides tore into each other. I'm staying out of there; it's like walking into a cave and there are all these eyes looking back at you... you can actually hear the knives being sharpened before you even post anything.


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02 Jan 2022, 9:29 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
There is very rarely a black-n-white tickbox solution to unravelling these communication issues to the satisfaction of those involved.

Though I understand this when these posts are publicly visible and you get someone abusing the rules of debate to post subtle or not so subtle transphobic, homophobic and racist things there is a problem with the debate rule.
I like to think the immediately obvious trolls and haters are quickly dispatched but inevitably, there are always those who try to creatively skirt the site rules. Perhaps moderation leans too far on the "free expression" side and that the darker intentions of posts aren't always obvious?
On balance, I think I would prefer that as opposed to moderators breathing down everyone's necks, hovering and waiting for the slightest misstep - but it's a mater of striking a balance, and that isn't always straightforward.

I know it gets mentioned often, but reporting posts not only helps us catch this sort of thing - it can also indicate where something wasn't obvious to us.
Moderation is never perfect, and neither are we.


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02 Jan 2022, 9:40 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
PPR is notoriously toxic at the best of times. In the run up to the US elections every other thread on the site was political and full of aggression as both sides tore into each other. I'm staying out of there; it's like walking into a cave and there are all these eyes looking back at you... you can actually hear the knives being sharpened before you even post anything.
PPR is a bear-pit of aggressively defended opinions, and there's nothing quite like P, P and R for pretty much instantly stirring up anger.

But it's something what was demanded by the membership so, for better or worse, there it is.
The few other ASD-related sites I've seen have no such forum - because it's almost guaranteed to stir up a hotbed of rage.

It's a real shortcoming of the way in which phpBB, the site's forum software, has been set up, leaving us with no ability to block specific forums from being seen at all, but unfortunately, onward development of WP's facilities and operation has historically never been a priority.

If we could block it on request (or block as a default and allow on request) I think several spiky issues could be resolved at a stroke.


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maycontainthunder
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02 Jan 2022, 9:44 am

Cornflake wrote:
I know it gets mentioned often, but reporting posts not only helps us catch this sort of thing - it can also indicate where something wasn't obvious to us.
Moderation is never perfect, and neither are we.


^ Fair points Cornflake and I agree that no-one is perfect. As you are aware (and maybe slightly fed up with) I've found the 'Report' button :jester: .

Earlier on today there was a mini spam attack and one member didn't know how to report it. Maybe a little set of instructions in each sub-forum on a sticky would help? I know you can't act quickly if attention isn't drawn... it must be a bit like trying to spot a cork floating in a lake some days.


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Cornflake
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02 Jan 2022, 9:51 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
As you are aware (and maybe slightly fed up with) I've found the 'Report' button :jester: .
:lol: Never.

Quote:
Earlier on today there was a mini spam attack and one member didn't know how to report it. Maybe a little set of instructions in each sub-forum on a sticky would help? I know you can't act quickly if attention isn't drawn...
Ah, the eternal problem of "how to make sure everyone knows [x]" :chin:
But another facility that isn't used here is the ability to show a short message to a new member when they first log on, which could include that and other basic information. It's especially irritating that other (mostly technical) phpBB-based sites I use do just that.

Quote:
it must be a bit like trying to spot a cork floating in a lake some days.
Yep... :lol:


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Nades
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02 Jan 2022, 10:19 am

What is hate speech?

A website full of autistics often closed off from the wider public and society at large + typical obsessive and narrow minded thinking of autistics + inept and blinkered economic, foreign, and social "opinions", from demographic who struggles immensely with finances and interacting with others?

"Hate speech" might be tricky to define yeah.

It gets even more whacky when a blunt and very capable aspie clashes. I've seen that a good few times and it gets funny to watch.



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02 Jan 2022, 10:25 am

Flown wrote:
I've thought about it, and I'm in agreement. I think I may actually be joining HoH. I felt the urge to leave earlier in the week (after axeman's antics), but some other members here pleaded that I stay. I truly value those few kind souls that i have interacted with here on WP, but I just don't think things will change here in terms of the blatant racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia. I've been hiding in the game forums for the most part, keeping my head in the sand when it comes to the nasty rhetoric which has spread throughout the site. I can't have a real CONVERSATION here, and it is maddening. I have felt like the minority since I joined, and things have definitely not improved as of late. Even my partner has commented on the mood that WP puts me in and doesn't see why I am staying.

I'm staying in contact with HoH over Discord. If anyone else wants to stay in touch, please let me know.


Another loss to the site. :(


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The_Walrus
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02 Jan 2022, 1:13 pm

I've not been using the site much recently. I thought WrongPlanet had evolved past the point where it still needed me, but I understand the remaining mods have been a little overwhelmed recently.

I'm sad that HeroOfHyrule doesn't want to post here any more. They're an excellent contributor. I don't know the other two names mentioned.

I definitely share a lot of the frustration about the general pervasiveness of transphobia on the internet right now. I do, equally, see the need for tolerance and allowing people to clumsily work their way through difficult topics. As a moderator, my response to hate speech is typically to shut it down and issue a warning. There are communities where banning for a first offence makes complete sense, but I don't think this is one of them, unless someone appears to have registered solely to troll.

I'll reiterate what Cornflake said about the report button. Whenever I have checked the queue in the last few days, there haven't been any open reports. Please do report anything you think rises to the level of hate speech. WrongPlanet has long standing rules against racism, sexism, and homophobia and we will take action when we're aware of them, but sometimes we miss things.



IsabellaLinton
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02 Jan 2022, 1:42 pm

maycontainthunder wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
maycontainthunder wrote:
I hope we don't lose anyone else because of a small number of narrow minded, intolerant people.


I think part of the problem is some posters like starting political threads with the intent to provoke, rather than understand. Also, if one of us starts a (political) thread with the certainty our view is right, then this only leads to contention instead of discussion. Some people here never want anyone to disagree with them, but forget this is a place for equal interactions.


I agree. PPR is notoriously toxic at the best of times. In the run up to the US elections every other thread on the site was political and full of aggression as both sides tore into each other. I'm staying out of there; it's like walking into a cave and there are all these eyes looking back at you... you can actually hear the knives being sharpened before you even post anything.


It's a shame because there's no avenue for discussing Philosophy or Religion in an academic way. I understand to some extent that Politics will become contentious, but I wish Philosophy and Religion had a separate and more respectful space. Given the site's rules, intolerance and hate speech shouldn't be spilling over into other subfora, or existing at all.

It's become impossible to have an informed, intellectual conversation here. The only place for academic discourse is PPR and for some reason, it's become a battleground so bigoted that we're losing our best and most dedicated members. It's not satisfying to post only in game and music threads to avoid being bullied. We should all be free to discuss intellectual topics without the fear of being gaslit or trashtalked by trolls, on public forum.



Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 02 Jan 2022, 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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02 Jan 2022, 1:46 pm

Autists who hold bigoted views still need support.
Autists in the communities they hate both need support and shouldn't have to subject themselves to abuse from the former group.

Ideally both groups can be accommodated but when the two come into conflict it seems the latter are consistently driven away when really, the former should be who bears the brunt of any conflict.


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02 Jan 2022, 1:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Autists who hold bigoted views still need support.
Autists in the communities they hate both need support and shouldn't have to subject themselves to abuse from the former group.

Ideally both groups can be accommodated but when the two come into conflict it seems the latter are consistently driven away when really, the former should be who bears the brunt of any conflict.


I agree 100%.

Respectful and reciprocal dialogue can be constructive.

Persistent or intentional trolling is not. None of us are here to be exploited or abused.



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02 Jan 2022, 2:07 pm

Flown wrote:
I've thought about it, and I'm in agreement. I think I may actually be joining HoH. I felt the urge to leave earlier in the week (after axeman's antics), but some other members here pleaded that I stay. I truly value those few kind souls that i have interacted with here on WP, but I just don't think things will change here in terms of the blatant racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia. I've been hiding in the game forums for the most part, keeping my head in the sand when it comes to the nasty rhetoric which has spread throughout the site. I can't have a real CONVERSATION here, and it is maddening. I have felt like the minority since I joined, and things have definitely not improved as of late. Even my partner has commented on the mood that WP puts me in and doesn't see why I am staying.

I'm staying in contact with HoH over Discord. If anyone else wants to stay in touch, please let me know.
You still have friends here.  Best wishes to you!

:D