[ POLL ] An Argument Against Universal Basic Income.

Page 8 of 11 [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next


Do you agree with the premises and conclusion of the essay?
Yes, absolutely! 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Yes, mostly. 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Some things yes, some things no. 27%  27%  [ 12 ]
No, mostly. 33%  33%  [ 15 ]
No, absolutely! 22%  22%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 45

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,605
Location: the island of defective toy santas

12 Jun 2021, 7:14 am

it has been my direct experience that minimum wage jobs are among the toughest one that exist. anybody who has ever slaved and scurried around a hot stove in a pizza parlor is missing out on an experience of hell on earth.



AprilR
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Apr 2016
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,518

12 Jun 2021, 9:58 am

@nick: I see what you mean. I guess since i live under very different conditions i have a different worldview. Where i live minimum wage is also very low. And i def. Didn't mean to say minimum wage jobs are easy. I know i wouldn't be able to work in a fast food store for sure.
But what i meant is there are a lot of people i know who never bothered to study and think of their future careers when i was still in school. Entering a college and getting a degree is very easy here, we just have an entrance exam but there are so many universities you have to be REALLY lazy to not be able to enter. I myself spent my university years in depression/anxiety vs and my grades were hilariously bad but i was still able to graduate. It was really not hard to graduate.
And when i see some people who never bothered to actually care about anything in their life complain and rely on the government for help it seems unfair.

I completely agree that some people are not fit for working. There are lots of mentally/physically disabled or ill people and they should definitely get their expenses covered. I also support universal healthcare and everyone has health insurance in my country. And i am really glad for it too.

But sometimes i question things since there are entitled as*holes here who attack doctors ( yes physically attack) because they weren't happy with their treatment. Threats, physical attacks, swearing at doctors is nothing abnormal where i live. In fact" healthcare violence" is a term here. And those doctors who were abused? They have no right to refuse a patient even though the patient actually attempted to kill them. Because it is their duty to treat every patient.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

12 Jun 2021, 10:15 am

auntblabby wrote:
it has been my direct experience that minimum wage jobs are among the toughest one that exist. anybody who has ever slaved and scurried around a hot stove in a pizza parlor is missing out on an experience of hell on earth.
You do not know Hell-On-Earth until you have mucked out a 500-gallon septic tank in the middle of an August drought!


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,771
Location: wales

12 Jun 2021, 11:03 am

If UBI is made very minimal then yes but I see little point anyway. Regular disability benefits usually does an OK job at looking after the vulnerable.

There is a moral argument to make for it but putting it in practice is very different. My opinion is that it will start a slow drip feed of people leaving work if not balanced correctly putting a bigger and bigger strain on those who are working. The last thing I want to see is j employment rates of 40% productivity per head tanking and those who are working being taxed into oblivion while working long weeks.

I think UBI would be better replaced with all food and energy costs covered by the state at most. There must be no incentive under any circumstance in using it as a sole source of income.

While UBI seems.mkral on the surface, it actually opens up a whole new world of exploitative behaviour if not strictly monitored.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

12 Jun 2021, 11:22 am

Food stamps, council housing, subsidized utilities, public transportation vouchers, basic income ... what else?


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,771
Location: wales

12 Jun 2021, 11:34 am

Fnord wrote:
Food stamps, council housing, subsidized utilities, public transportation vouchers, basic income ... what else?


By basic income I mean very basic income and ideally none. Council housing is another thing I'm unsure of if someone mentioned it and I didn't spot it. With an average house costing about £150k to build in the UK, It's a tremendous amount of money to spend housing someone who might not contribute a penny into the system and instead take, take, take with potentially enough UBI to live off indefinitely. When you take into account say 15k a year of UBI for 50 years (750k) and the 150k free house along with possible utilities and food being paid, 4 or more poor folks paying an average of £5500 each in tax on an average salary, will have to do a full 9 to 5 to support that person assuming every penny of their tax goes towards that one person and one person alone and nothing else.

Literally, for everyone 1 person who decides to live in a state house off UBI, about 4 or 5 people need to work full time to support them. In my eyes that's exploitative if that 1 person is doing so by choice while being perfectly able to work.

State housing should only be available to those with a disability or who have already contributed many years worth of tax into the economy.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

12 Jun 2021, 11:45 am

I mentioned this before in another thread, but adequate housing can be constructed from shipping containers for one-third to one-half the cost of a "brick-and-mortar" apartment.

Image


This image is from the Southeast Dallas' Shipping Container Housing Project --> LINK 


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,771
Location: wales

12 Jun 2021, 11:59 am

Fnord wrote:
I mentioned this before in another thread, but adequate housing can be constructed from shipping containers for one-third to one-half the cost of a "brick-and-mortar" apartment.

Image


This image is from the Southeast Dallas' Shipping Container Housing Project --> LINK 


They cost a lot less but they don't last as long as brick house too. The difference in cost might be surprisingly minimal over the long run. All the shipping containers I seem to walk into are full of holes and have massive rust patches even the layers of paint are starting to make it look like a Russian doll.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

12 Jun 2021, 12:03 pm

Nades wrote:
... All the shipping containers I seem to walk into are full of holes and have massive rust patches even the layers of paint are starting to make it look like a Russian doll.
The shipping containers you have walked into were likely used and abused for many years.  The ones used for housing are usually brand new.  I looked into investing in such a project myself, until I found out that it would be used to house paroled felons, schizophrenics, and drug-abusers.

Sure, they need housing too, but not on my dime.


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,205
Location: Pacific Northwest

12 Jun 2021, 12:08 pm

AprilR wrote:
I mostly agree with this essay( in theory) . To me, someone who works hard all their life to have a succesful career and someone who slacks off is not the same. I see nothing wrong with people who worked hard and graduated from good universities to earn more than people who slacked off in their youth. Though i know working hard is no guarantee
to get a good job and salary. (also i am not american and getting into a university is much cheaper in my country)

It is also a fact that a system like UBI can be exploited very easily. Too much compassion can be exploited.

I have seen a lot of people who actually pretend to be disabled and homeless so they don't have to work and can get money from people in the streets. They even make their children beg for money in the streets so people will pity them. I am sure some of these people are actually poor but i don't doubt there are many liars and con artists among them.
Laziness and expecting the government to take care of everything certainly doesn't yield good results.




I'm too lazy to go out and beg for money, can't play on your game system, you have to stand out in the weather, rain or shine, look like a bum and hold up a sign all day, boring. I'm too lazy for that and that is a lot of work.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,771
Location: wales

12 Jun 2021, 12:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
... All the shipping containers I seem to walk into are full of holes and have massive rust patches even the layers of paint are starting to make it look like a Russian doll.
The shipping containers you have walked into were likely used and abused for many years.  The ones used for housing are usually brand new.  I looked into investing in such a project myself, until I found out that it would be used to house paroled felons, schizophrenics, and drug-abusers.

Sure, they need housing too, but not on my dime.


Do you want to give those people enough money a year to live off though? The lack of money they have stops a great deal of people from overdosing or becoming a general nusance.

All the shipping containers are old yes, but buildings containing steel have a love hate relationship in the UK at least. For example, rebar reinforced concrete buildings are often impossible to get a mortgage on for residential use here and many people would dislike living in shipping containers anyway.

I too once looked into the possibility of a mass shipping container business project but this time for self storage. They cost a lot of money for what they were personally and considering many brick houses where I live are 150+ years old, people certainly get their moneys worth out of brick and stone.

I suppose they could be a viable living solution for the poor but I would never really want to see row after row of shipping containers being lived in by people supported entirely by the state. It would be like a ghetto full of lost souls.



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,205
Location: Pacific Northwest

12 Jun 2021, 12:18 pm

AprilR wrote:
@nick: I see what you mean. I guess since i live under very different conditions i have a different worldview. Where i live minimum wage is also very low. And i def. Didn't mean to say minimum wage jobs are easy. I know i wouldn't be able to work in a fast food store for sure.
But what i meant is there are a lot of people i know who never bothered to study and think of their future careers when i was still in school. Entering a college and getting a degree is very easy here, we just have an entrance exam but there are so many universities you have to be REALLY lazy to not be able to enter. I myself spent my university years in depression/anxiety vs and my grades were hilariously bad but i was still able to graduate. It was really not hard to graduate.
And when i see some people who never bothered to actually care about anything in their life complain and rely on the government for help it seems unfair.

I completely agree that some people are not fit for working. There are lots of mentally/physically disabled or ill people and they should definitely get their expenses covered. I also support universal healthcare and everyone has health insurance in my country. And i am really glad for it too.

But sometimes i question things since there are entitled as*holes here who attack doctors ( yes physically attack) because they weren't happy with their treatment. Threats, physical attacks, swearing at doctors is nothing abnormal where i live. In fact" healthcare violence" is a term here. And those doctors who were abused? They have no right to refuse a patient even though the patient actually attempted to kill them. Because it is their duty to treat every patient.


One thing that bothers me is when people seem to forget that learning disabilities also exist and they can also stop you from getting a education and to get a career. I would not have finished high school if it weren't for the extra help I needed. Now I am not going to get this in college, no work modifications, no giving me easy work to make it easier for me. So I will be stuck at dead end jobs and at least I am working and I think I am far from lazy because I am still contributing to society.

And also what sucks is when one does try to get help for their problems only to have their coverage denied so what is the point in getting help if the doctor will refuse your coverage and bill you the entire visit? Makes me not want to try and get help and just deal with my own anxiety myself without meds and doctors if they won't use my coverage. And Medicare B does cover preventative care and my doctor somehow decided it was non coverage so they denied it. I am going to be doing an appeal and get a new doctor. People shouldn't be penalized for trying to get help and you wonder why we are lazy.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

12 Jun 2021, 12:18 pm

Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
... All the shipping containers I seem to walk into are full of holes and have massive rust patches even the layers of paint are starting to make it look like a Russian doll.
The shipping containers you have walked into were likely used and abused for many years.  The ones used for housing are usually brand new.  I looked into investing in such a project myself, until I found out that it would be used to house paroled felons, schizophrenics, and drug-abusers.

Sure, they need housing too, but not on my dime.
Do you want to give those people enough money a year to live off though?
I do, but only through established shelters and relief missions -- never in person (getting mugged a few times because I tried to help panhandlers put me off that track permanently).

I have read your accounts and the accounts of others who rent out their property to needy people.  When I invest in housing, I want something left of the housing that can be rented out again or sold outright without first committing to massive repairs and refurbishment.  Know what I mean?

I am sure you do.


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1933
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,771
Location: wales

12 Jun 2021, 12:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
... All the shipping containers I seem to walk into are full of holes and have massive rust patches even the layers of paint are starting to make it look like a Russian doll.
The shipping containers you have walked into were likely used and abused for many years.  The ones used for housing are usually brand new.  I looked into investing in such a project myself, until I found out that it would be used to house paroled felons, schizophrenics, and drug-abusers.

Sure, they need housing too, but not on my dime.
Do you want to give those people enough money a year to live off though?
I do, but only through established shelters and relief missions -- never in person (getting mugged a few times because I tried to help panhandlers put me off that track permanently).

I have read your accounts and the accounts of others who rent out their property to needy people.  When I invest in housing, I want something left of the housing that can be rented out again or sold outright without first committing to massive repairs and refurbishment.  Know what I mean?

I am sure you do.


I think they would be better off with food instead of UBI.

I've also tried to give money to homeless people in the city. I also had to endure an attempted mugging and several other arguments. Once they find out you have money they won't leave you alone and often get aggressive while they follow you for hundreds of meters.

Yeah be careful who you rent to as well. To be honest, all of the people on benefits I've rented to have ended their tenancy with one problem or another. All of them eventually abandoned the property. I find that people on benefits are often very impulsive and are unable to hold down a steady job or maintain a steady lifestyle, hence why they are on state welfare. They've all run off with women/men in the end with no warning (again impulsiveness) leaving me out of pocket with a house full of crap to varying degrees but at nowhere near as bad as my current tenant. Refurbishing and repairing houses isn't to bad too as you can get them cheap. I've refurbished and repaired all the houses I have and so far most tenants have been great.

The problem with UBI arises when you start giving people like I mentioned above free money and homes............they'll always find a way to screw it up and the more money they get the bigger they'll screw it up.

With food stamps it's hard to balls that up and is a very efficient use of tax money. The housing on the other hand? Perhaps those shipping containers are not to bad for people who just can't hold down a steady job or worse yet, refuse to work because of excessive UBI.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,605
Location: the island of defective toy santas

13 Jun 2021, 6:08 am

Fnord wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it has been my direct experience that minimum wage jobs are among the toughest one that exist. anybody who has ever slaved and scurried around a hot stove in a pizza parlor is missing out on an experience of hell on earth.
You do not know Hell-On-Earth until you have mucked out a 500-gallon septic tank in the middle of an August drought!

granted that is much closer to the innermost circles of hell but the pizza parlor example [for me who had heat stroke] is surely an outer circle of hell?



DoniiMann
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 477
Location: Tasmania

15 Jun 2021, 4:38 pm

I doubt UBI will tempt anyone to avoid work in industries that pay a moral wage. It would probably only tempt those whose wages are so low anyway that there's probably no justification to work 40 hours per week for a similar level of $ as is paid by UBI. Thinking of jobs that require their staff to rely on tips, or the story I read about Walmart running seminars for their workers on how to claim benefits while working there, and having food drives for their workers.

Maybe the real story behind UBI isn't that it might deprive employers of staff, but the expectation that the poor should feel privileged to work for pocket change.


_________________
assumption makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'mption'.