Explaining the dangerous government overreach to aspie kids

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Aspie1
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04 Apr 2021, 8:50 am

(Disclaimer: this post is US-centric.)

Last year, many state governors turned everyone's lives upside down and made people question their reality. All while themselves not practicing what they preach. It was bad enough for adults and NT kids. But what about aspie kids? 8O

We all know that aspie kids have trouble making friends. And the friendships they do establish tend to be tenuous, and more prone to falling apart than those of NT kids (unless it's with fellow aspies). So when a "stay home" order goes into effect, those friendships are often done for, because Zoom/Facetime only goes so far. To complicate the matters, aspie kids take everything to heart, including government fearmongering about The Virus. Furthermore, schools are extremely pro-establishment, affirming and supporting government messages. Even more so, therapists who are there to help will just make cooing noises at the kid, but ultimately side with the government, telling the kid to just keep using Zoom and withholding any real solutions. As a result, literally EVERYTHING an aspie kid ends up hearing is "virus, virus, virus" and "stay home, stay home, stay home". Thus, they end up trapped alone with their thoughts, with literally NOBODY caring how they feel.

So... how would you explain the dangers of government overreach on our everyday lives? How would you explain that it's not you, the parent, but the government that destroyed your aspie kid's nascent friendships, and gave them insomnia, anxiety, and depression from the lockdowns? How would tell your kid that the government is usually wrong, doesn't care how its actions affect them, and doesn't have their interests at heart? (Unless the kid is a part of a favored or an elite group/demographic.) And how would you explain that your kid's school is in bed with the governor and/or mayor? Heck, even some cops and sheriffs, who are pretty much an extension of the government, refuse to enforce local "stay home" orders, because of the damage to mental health and economy they inflict.

Yours truly found a sneaky, risky workaround: joining a politicized group of questionable beliefs. They were willing to socialize, virus or no virus, and I'm still fine. Plus, I live alone. I also grew up during the times when "government overreach" was a thing that happened in other countries, not the USA. (The Covid lockdowns triggered memories of my own parents' overreach on my life when I was a kid.) But today's kids, aspie or NT, have no such luxuries.



DW_a_mom
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07 Apr 2021, 7:53 pm

I'm not nearly as anti-government as you are. And, honestly, I think teaching a child your beliefs would be harmful to the child and the future adult that child will grow up to be. Seeing the world around us as full of people and institutions working against us has yet to ever make anyone feel happier or more able to cope. It may be true at times, but without an actionable plan, it is unproductive. None of those broad sweeping negative views are necessary to achieve the goal I assume you want, which is a little skepticism, but also a way of dealing with authority imposed hardship.

My one-size fits all explanation to my son as he was growing up was that authority is charged with trying to figure out what will work for the group as a whole, best they can, but no authority is perfect (including parents). Rules and laws need to be followed even when you disagree with them or there will be chaos. Using game analogy often helped. If a rule or law is harmful, or forces you to do something you believe is harmful, then challenge the rule or law in an appropriate and (hopefully) effective manner. To help with the later, I taught my kids how to stand up for themselves and how to make an effective case that will be heard. They learned that skill with us, and used it effectively with us, then used the skill effectively at school, as well. As adults, they vote, they participate, they challenge, but all within the rules of the game. To the extent the world just sucks, they're used to voicing that by "venting" to friends and family (negative energy has to go somewhere), but they aren't excessive about it. Change what you can, accept what you can't. It's a skill and a fine line that I wish your family had taught you, but perhaps they never learned it themselves.

Your assumption that Aspie kids couldn't transition into a screen based world feels inaccurate to me, although it is going to vary by individual. My ASD adult son barely noticed or felt the difference, except for the inconvenient problem that him and his girlfriend were stuck in different households. He quickly transitioned to playing his card games on-line with his friends. Playing games like Magic has always been his go-to social activity, and it has never stopped. He was truly content while he was with us. What took a little rearranging was making him and his girlfriend into a single household, which was more to meet her needs than his (although he certainly is happy now!). His ASD girlfriend was having a much more difficult time because she is so touch based. Even though her family was doing more socializing than ours, and even though she was theoretically used to multi-month separations from my son when both were in school, she struggled. It's much better now that she and my son have their own household. Change what you can, accept what you can't.

All kids, really, are having trouble with the pandemic. Kids don't need a straw man like some big nasty government; they don't need to place blame. What they need is a simple and clear understanding of the rules, and the reason for the rules. Agreeing with every rule isn't really necessary; no one child ever will. If my kids were still little, I'd let them complain about the shut-down rules, and we'd find a way to joke about it. A little levity goes a long way towards helping kids deal with rules that don't seem logical to them. My neighbor turned his backyard into an amazing playground wonderland to help his kids cope. Mine would have loved that sort of thing, too. Change what you can, make the best of what you can't. Kids GET that. If they are having psychological struggles that go deeper, it is the parent's job to find a solution, not to pass the buck. Explaining that some distant authority is to blame isn't going to help the family or the child in any way shape or form, so why bother?

My son has been working a child-focused job through-out the pandemic and he loves being able to put something positive into their lives. He teaches coding, game design, and math to little kids in a summer camp format. When the opportunity came up, he jumped on it right away, with his explanation being being that "kids could use a little summer camp in their lives right now" (despite it not being summer at the time). Many of his students are on the spectrum, and the code based world he shows them is well suited to the current situation. Solutions like that work for families, I just wish there wasn't so much economic disparity as to which families can access it.

One more important parenting rule: don't pass your own demons onto your kids. Life has left you with a lot of demons, Apsie 1, and I am truly sorry for that.


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Aspie1
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07 Apr 2021, 8:52 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm not nearly as anti-government as you are. And, honestly, I think teaching a child your beliefs would be harmful to the child and the future adult that child will grow up to be. Seeing the world around us as full of people and institutions working against us has yet to ever make anyone feel happier or more able to cope. It may be true at times, but without an actionable plan, it is unproductive. None of those broad sweeping negative views are necessary to achieve the goal I assume you want, which is a little skepticism, but also a way of dealing with authority imposed hardship.
...
All kids, really, are having trouble with the pandemic. Kids don't need a straw man like some big nasty government; they don't need to place blame. What they need is a simple and clear understanding of the rules, and the reason for the rules. Agreeing with every rule isn't really necessary; no one child ever will. If my kids were still little, I'd let them complain about the shut-down rules, and we'd find a way to joke about it. A little levity goes a long way towards helping kids deal with rules that don't seem logical to them. My neighbor turned his backyard into an amazing playground wonderland to help his kids cope. Mine would have loved that sort of thing, too. Change what you can, make the best of what you can't. Kids GET that. If they are having psychological struggles that go deeper, it is the parent's job to find a solution, not to pass the buck. Explaining that some distant authority is to blame isn't going to help the family or the child in any way shape or form, so why bother?
Well, as an adult, I found a great way to deal with the rules that didn't make sense to me: I didn't partake in Zoom sessions with friends, I didn't arrange socially distant picnics, I just broke the rules! When my state locked everything down and took away all sources of joy, I found an actionable plan you speak of: I joined a questionable right-wing group, and went to their parties. I'm aware they're against lockdowns. Not that I agree with all their beliefs---they're too damn far-fetched---but hey, an enemy of my enemy is my friend. Plus, I'm single and acquired a full set of social skills less than 10 years ago, so I want to enjoy them, by hook or by crook. So basically, I changed what I could change: finding people to socialize with, even if by breaking the law and getting involved with the group I'd want nothing to do with as little as 2 years ago. And I accepted what I couldn't change, which is persuading my pro-lockdown friends to meet. Not bad for a former dork!

Sadly, kids have no such luxuries. They're at the mercy of what's handed to them. Not to mention, my group is adults only. That's 18+ in theory, but more like 36+ in practice; I'm one of the youngest people there. After all, the voting habits of young people and older people are like night and day. And since there's the no such group for kids, they're SOL when it comes to socializing during a lockdown. Perhaps as a father, I'd look for like-minded parents, go on a group road trip with them to a non-lockdown state, and have the kids play together to their hearts' content, with hugs and handshakes, if they so desire. But finding like-minded parents is no easy task, and there's always a risk of rats/moles reporting me.

That's why I'd want to teach my hypothetical kid(s) that authority figures and their supporters, by and large, are NOT their friends. That's teachers, counselors, pediatricians, HR departments, police officers, mayors, governors, legislatures, and anyone on their side; the list goes on forever. The only authority figures I'd want them trusting are religious leaders, and I speak as an atheist. And if certain rules don't make sense, then they're meant to be broken. You just gotta know how to do it right.

Of course, if authority figures are the enemy and I'm the kid's father, what does that make me? :? 8O



Last edited by Aspie1 on 07 Apr 2021, 9:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

funeralxempire
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07 Apr 2021, 9:01 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Of course, if authority figures are the enemy and I'm the kid's father, what does that make me? :? 8O


Either someone with zero authority or the enemy or both. :wink:


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DW_a_mom
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08 Apr 2021, 7:33 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Of course, if authority figures are the enemy and I'm the kid's father, what does that make me? :? 8O


I'm glad you can, at least, see the issue.

Good parenting is a fine line, just as good leadership is. You have to steer the ship, teach, engage, and keep order all at the same time. Quite a lot of trial and error is involved. Which is why I much prefer to approach issues with leadership from a more generous standpoint of assuming good intentions, and starting conversations when needed. In my experience, assuming that most people ultimately want the same things, works quite well in a family and in life. I can be very effective in moving change forward when needed. On the flip, my kids felt I was a good advocate for them who cared about getting their needs met.

I won't touch talking about your reasoning and conclusion with a ten foot pole beyond saying I disagree. You and I are very different people, as you already know.


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Xanxan
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08 Apr 2021, 9:54 pm

My family is practicing social distancing and we're very confident on our decision, even if its overwhelming and exhausting. So you may want to ignore this or take it for what it is.

If you're not observing the mandate, and you're socializing and going out with specific like-minded people, how much of it do you need to explain to your child? I imagine that if they ask you about the zoom classes, which I agree are a pain, you could just say that the schools are making this choice because of the virus, and you disagree with them, and that's why you're going out with the group you're frequenting.

If your child is very interested in politics, I would say just nurture their curiosity and let them make their own conclussions. There have been times when I've been angry with our government and policy-makers, and I get that it's impossible to be neutral with the children and not coat our words with a sense of who we are and how we see the world, but it is also their right to form their own opinions as well as not to care about it at all...

If your child is a budding public servant or future anti-government activist, bring the information to them. Let them lead and ask the questions. If your child is tired and sad over the zoom calls and is expressing that to you, they're going to you for hope, comfort and understanding. Validate their feelings, left them know that its hard for you as well, and offer some alternative activity that will soothe them and encourage them. A discussion on dangerous government overreach is not going to give them peace of mind or hope, which is...in my very personal opinion, what needs to be prioritized right now.



Aspie1
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09 Apr 2021, 7:56 am

Xanxan wrote:
My family is practicing social distancing and we're very confident on our decision, even if its overwhelming and exhausting. So you may want to ignore this or take it for what it is.

If you're not observing the mandate, and you're socializing and going out with specific like-minded people, how much of it do you need to explain to your child? I imagine that if they ask you about the zoom classes, which I agree are a pain, you could just say that the schools are making this choice because of the virus, and you disagree with them, and that's why you're going out with the group you're frequenting.
You're less rebellious than me, I guess. I personally wouldn't stand for it. Once my patience ran out, I just took the matters into my own hands. And I'm glad beyond glad. I wouldn't call anyone in that group to ask them to pick me up and drive me home if I missed the last train out of downtown, but I'm happy to have them on my side politically and socially.

I'd simply explain to my kid that there are people in the government who hate America, so they're creating rules and restrictions that make an average American's life miserable. I'd also use this opportunity to teach about hidden motives (an issue many aspies have trouble with). Like when my therapist used to ask how bullying made me feel "to help me feel better in the long run", I knew she just enjoyed watching me squirm uneasily in my chair. As for Zoom classes, if I could afford it, I'll pull my kid out of the leftist public school system, and enroll him in a private school, lots of which are already wide open with minimal Covid rules and no leftist indoctrination. Failing that, I'd homeschool him at least until 2024.

The best part will be bringing my family closer, by creating an "us against the deadly government" feeling. Finding "like-minded" people was a cakewalk for me. But I'm a single man, with different goals: getting my drunken social fix and meeting women. It's a different situation when you're the same thing as a family. But it can be done. I've read articles about multiple parents descending on a shuttered playground, tearing off the yellow police tape, and letting the kids play. What's funny and a bit sad is that the police didn't arrest those families upon finding out. A Covid supporter narc'ed on them, but the police simply told them to leave; sadly, laws are laws. When cops sympathize with their victims they're supposed to arrest, it's clear as day that the whole thing is a farce and a sham. And kids need to understand that!



DW_a_mom
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09 Apr 2021, 5:58 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
When cops sympathize with their victims they're supposed to arrest, it's clear as day that the whole thing is a farce and a sham. And kids need to understand that!


I'm afraid I can't just leave this one in the "agree to disagree" column, because I know it not to be true.
1. Cops are human, and bring a wide range of personal beliefs and emotions into their job. While they try to separate that from the job, they still are experiencing the same splits in political opinions and biased information sources the rest of us are.
2. Not all laws and rules are created equal, and all breaches are not created equal. Some warrant arrest, some don't. Severity and situation both matter. This is just as true in a family as it is in a community.
3. In the case of social distancing rule enforcement, arrest actually acts AGAINST the goals of the rules, by forcing increased contact and decreased distance at a time we want to avoid both. The goal is get people to disperse, not to push them together in a jail cell and their children transferred by social services into a foster home. Every last step of an arrest process violates the goals of social distancing. The ONLY time it makes sense is when someone unmasked is refusing to leave a crowded or indoor situation on private property, and in that case I would prefer the police simply force the violator outside but not arrest them.

The pandemic has been difficult because we've been forced to learn as we go, so some early rules have now been determined to not make sense and, thus, are (or should be) modified. But that doesn't mean you throw out all the rules, or use the reality to claim no one making the rules gave a @^#&*@!^ about the people (the quality of our leaders, and ability to follow their own rules, obviously varies). The pandemic is very much like the situations parents commonly face in their own families, when you have to start with partial information and adapt as you go. Such evolutions are a part of LIFE, and while teaching my ASD child how to bend with such changes was certainly a challenge, it was also an ESSENTIAL life skill.

The pandemic is not a hoax, people close to me have died, and social distancing / mask wearing most definitely reduces the spread of the virus. The upside to it is that I haven't had a single cold this winter, a completely new experience for me.

You get to make your own decisions as long they don't inhibit my freedom, so I'm not going to tell you what to believe for yourself. But when it comes to what children should be taught, I think you've really missed the mark.


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09 Apr 2021, 6:38 pm

Obviously Aspie1 just wants to slaughter a bunch of kids. You all make his urge to commit ageist genocide sound its some kind of a bad thing!

And getting any group to ignore social distancing is a good way to decimate that group.

If you could find an old "Tide Pod Challenge" video that would be a great model to follow to get kids to needlessly risk their lives.


Trouble is that UTube took down all of it's tide pod challenge videos.

Oh well.



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09 Apr 2021, 6:50 pm

There's a deep-seated flaw in the protests of anyone who doesn't like Covid-19 restrictions on libertarian grounds.

"This is outrageous attack upon my liberty," they cry, "for something that clearly doesn't warrant it!"

The only reason the infection rate and death toll *apparently* don't warrant widespread social distancing measures IS BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING HELD ARTIFICIALLY LOW BY THOSE VERY SAME WIDESPREAD SOCIAL DISTANCING MEASURES.

I don't understand how some people find this so hard to grasp. Have a look at the history of the post-WW1 Spanish Flu epidemic to see what happens when control measures aren't introduced soon enough, and also for the evidence as to how effective they CAN be when done right. Government have done their best to learn the lessons here, it's a shame some individuals think they know better. Stupidity is doing the same things again and again, expecting different results.

I agree, incidentally, that the risks for the children themselves from Covid-19 are very low. But the risks aren't necessarily low for the adults who are in regular contact with the kids, and schools are naturally a prime location for virus-spreading. Especially as most kids have a rather flexible, forgetful approach to hygiene and personal space.

We are incredibly lucky to be living in the age of the internet and mobile phones. There are many different ways to stay in contact with friends and family, to learn, and to play games. Imagine what it was like in 1915. The biggest problem is that everyone seems to be pumped full of self-importance now, everything has to be about them rather than looking after society as a whole. Me first, and screw you. That's an appalling message to be teaching kids. One day they might be called to protect their nation by going to war. One day they might need to find alternatives to fossil fuels, and tackle all sorts of climate change issues. What hope if they're all entirely self-absorbed? One day they'll be looking after us when we get old and worn out, too. Or maybe not, if they have no sense of loyalty, empathy, or social obligation. We'll reap what we sow.

I feel sorry for these kids, who are being brainwashed by parents who've never grown up properly either. Adults busy throwing a strop because they're not being allowed to do what they want, when they want, all the time. "I want to be a selfish dick but THEY won't let me!". Well boo hoo, tough luck. Time to grow a pair and do what's best for everyone, not just yourself.

It seems that many people would only have been happy to accept "lockdown" measures without whinging if millions had died (570k ish clearly isn't enough). The problem with that is, control measures against viruses like Covid-19 are only really effective if introduced early. Had Covid-19 been allowed free rein to hit a 1 million death toll as quickly as possible, the situation would now be completely out of hand. Clawing your way back from that position is massively more difficult than avoiding it in the first place. Plus a million people would already be dead. But hey, at least it would silence all the self-proclaimed experts on Facebook and Twitter, eh? :roll:



Aspie1
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10 Apr 2021, 9:59 am

Wow! Just wow! I'm saddened how the people on here all worship the government. Enjoy your new normal, folks. :roll: Teach your kids how to act when a police officer or a government official says "papers, please". Don't teach them how to keep their human dignity in the face of government overreach.

Meanwhile, I'll be dancing with a lady who makes up in the fun factor for what she lacks in "taking Covid seriously".



DW_a_mom
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10 Apr 2021, 5:56 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Wow! Just wow! I'm saddened how the people on here all worship the government. Enjoy your new normal, folks. :roll: Teach your kids how to act when a police officer or a government official says "papers, please". Don't teach them how to keep their human dignity in the face of government overreach.

Meanwhile, I'll be dancing with a lady who makes up in the fun factor for what she lacks in "taking Covid seriously".


Exaggerate, much? I was trying to politely leave most of our differences in the "agree to disagree" column, but you are so convinced you hold all the winning cards and just had to push with that word, "worship," didn't you? There is a lot of distance between "worshiping the government" and teaching kids that all authority is evil. A LOT. NEITHER is correct. I believe in healthy skepticism, accountability, and standing up to power in effective ways when necessary. Shoot, part of my job is winning against the IRS. An incredibly fun part, actually. But government and authority, like everything else in this world, is a mix of good people and bad people, things that work and things that don't, times they are right and times they are wrong. I do my research and have ways to test the veracity of information. Fortunately for you, COVID-19 is an odds game, and your bad choices may never come back to haunt you. You are free to take that risk, but forcing it onto a child (which, thankfully, you can't since you don't have kids), or an aging or vulnerable relative or neighbor, would be irresponsible. And teaching a child to hate is condemning them to a miserable life, for hate does nothing but create problems.


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10 Apr 2021, 9:58 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Wow! Just wow! I'm saddened how the people on here all worship the government. Enjoy your new normal, folks. :roll: Teach your kids how to act when a police officer or a government official says "papers, please". Don't teach them how to keep their human dignity in the face of government overreach.

Meanwhile, I'll be dancing with a lady who makes up in the fun factor for what she lacks in "taking Covid seriously".

I don't worship Government, in fact I'm generally pretty cynical about authority, but I respect medical experts and the lessons of history.

Wiki list of epidemics

I also don't feel the need to believe every single bit of hare-brained internet nonsense spouted as gospel, just because it doesn't come from an official source. How is it possible to be so paranoid in one direction and yet so gullible in another?

If you watch our politicians and big business overlords at the moment they are doing their best to capitalize on this pandemic. Whether that's banks repossessing houses or encouraging people into debt, businessmen making money off facemasks and hand sanitiser, pharma companies making money off vaccines, or stockbrokers betting on a crash. It isn't pleasant to watch but it is exactly what I'd expect.

Where the conspiracy theories fall over is in making the leap from there, to saying that the pandemic was either deliberately engineered, or is instead nothing but a hoax. I'm afraid that stems largely from ignorance. How many jokers do you think there were in Russia in 1918 going "Epidemic? Load of old nonsense, mate." Or Naples in 1656? Mexico in 1520? Across Europe, Africa and North Asia in 1350? Sadly everyone's a bloody expert until someone they know dies, and ONLY then does it become a problem. You can't control epidemics solely through retrospective, knee-jerk action, though. Yet here we are again with people that think they're a). cleverer than everyone else, and b). immortal. Nope, sorry, you might be lucky or you might not, but mother nature doesn't care what you think. Tinpot teenage politics won't help you, growing up and acting responsibly might.

Your call, but don't expect a big round of applause if you choose to do as you please, rather than recognising you have obligations towards your neighbours, friends and family. To me that's just the sign of a spoilt kid, when what is needed is responsible adult behaviour.



Aspie1
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11 Apr 2021, 1:44 am

Redd_Kross wrote:
Where the conspiracy theories fall over is in making the leap from there, to saying that the pandemic was either deliberately engineered, or is instead nothing but a hoax.
...
Tinpot teenage politics won't help you, growing up and acting responsibly might.
The virus itself was real since the day it was created in a lab. And the sickness it causes is real. But the rest is government engineering. In the US specifically, it was released to undermine Trump and make him lose the 2020 election. The Democrats' mission was successful, and now we have Biden and no hope for America until 2024 at the earliest. Even if my kids are too young to vote, I'd want them to know who hates them and their country, and therefore not support them, as well as be immune to the leftist indoctrination at their public school.

It doesn't get more "adult" than telling imperialists to pound sand. When we threw tea into the Boston Harbor (or "Harbour") and told King George III to kiss our hairy, sweaty butt, was it "irresponsible"? Or was it us declaring our independence on July 4, 1776, because we wanted nothing to do with Britian? Similarly, Americans are telling the CDC the same thing: butt out of our lives, and let us socialize!



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11 Apr 2021, 3:26 am

Aspie1 wrote:
The virus itself was real since the day it was created in a lab. And the sickness it causes is real. But the rest is government engineering. In the US specifically, it was released to undermine Trump and make him lose the 2020 election. The Democrats' mission was successful, and now we have Biden and no hope for America until 2024 at the earliest. Even if my kids are too young to vote, I'd want them to know who hates them and their country, and therefore not support them, as well as be immune to the leftist indoctrination at their public school.

It doesn't get more "adult" than telling imperialists to pound sand. When we threw tea into the Boston Harbor (or "Harbour") and told King George III to kiss our hairy, sweaty butt, was it "irresponsible"? Or was it us declaring our independence? Similarly, Americans are telling the CDC the same thing: butt out of our lives, and let us socialize!

What exactly do you mean by "the rest"? Viruses travel internationally, they always have done, it's just with jet travel they move from country to country a lot quicker than previously. You really think someone deliberately released Covid-19 in the USA, and all the other outbreaks across the globe at around the same time just happened to be coincidence?

Viruses don't care which political party someone is. They are, however, far more likely to affect the poor. Why? Higher density housing, poor nutrition, less chance of affording healthcare, higher chance of existing medical conditions, longer working hours, greater likelyhood of working manual jobs / front of house etc. etc. etc. The Democrats traditionally tax the ultra-rich more and spend at least some of the resulting revenue on poverty relief. Why would they hit their own the hardest? Some sort of bug that kills off golf courses would have been far more effective at destabilising Trump. A character who, incidentally, doesn't really need derailing, he manages that himself just fine every time he opens his mouth. So why bother letting loose something that could just as likely kill off your own friends and family as anyone else's?

Next there's the logic that Covid-19 would somehow stop Trump from getting elected. Now how does that work? For that logic to hold water he'd have to be an incompetent leader and mismanage the crisis. If he's as great as every right-winger claims, he'd have coped with ease, wouldn't he? Covid-19 doesn't, in itself, create a situation where the incumbent is going to lose - handling the situation really badly does that. As well as sleeping with tired porn stars for cash, attempting to subvert democracy with false claims of electoral fraud, cosying up to Putin, launching a boycott of Coke while drinking Coke, and the million and one other completely dumbass things he's done. What's ironic is that large swathes of America see him as the antidote to a system he very firmly reinforces.

Trump did a brilliant job of associating the ultra-wealthy elite of America with the Democrats, and then made himself out to be some sort of Robin Hood figure stealing money back from the rich to give to the poor. Except the rich aren't exclusively members of one party or the other - what they have in common is money, not political allegiance - and in practice Trump's economic policies made the rich even richer at everybody else's expense. There's a misconception that strong individual freedoms = wealth, but if you're living in a system that's owned by multinational corporations, more freedom just means more opportunity to get screwed over by the big guys. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are in the pockets of big business, the Democrats just happen to give slightly more back in exchange for the right to exploit you. If you think Trump is going to improve your lot, think again - Trump is all about Trump, and his biggest donors. BTW I also find it absolutely crazy that anyone thinks the US Democrat party is left wing; both parties are way to the right of centre. The Scandanavians would find that "leftist" accusation hilarious, as would the French and the Germans. On that basis we'd need to pick the Cubans off the floor.

Government is there to work for you. One of those functions is to protect people collectively where they can't necessarily do it individually. Armed forces to protect the nation from attack. Police to protect us from villains, fire-fighters to protect us from fire, medics to protect us from disease, education to protect us from stupidity. One of the functions of Government within a capitalist state is to protect us from greed, because there are very few natural controls over monopolistic, exploitative, all-encompassing capitalism. Once money starts calling all the shots all the time, rather than only when it's reasonable, individuals are screwed. I'm not saying for a second that capitalism can't benefit society as a whole, and nor am I saying that any better system exists, but it's naturally top-heavy and getting the most out of it takes care. Those at the top rig the system in their favour, and there's very little to prevent that. So there's an irony in saying "butt out of our lives - we want more freedom!" when that's going to mean more freedom to get bent over. What if we apply the same logic to the Army? "Stop interfering, we want to be invaded!". The Police? "Mind your own business, we like getting stabbed!". Healthcare? Oh, you're doing that already, my bad.

And so it is with Covid-19. "We want the freedom to be morons and get ill!". Well good luck with that then, idiots.

There's absolutely no way anyone would be willing or able to coordinate a global pandemic just to rig the US elections. Just how important do you think you are, for starters? Secondly, even if we accept that any form of vote rigging happened (which the majority of commentators from both parties, at both State and national level - and the Courts - all vehemently deny) there are SO many other options available that are less risky, easier, more effective, and require far less fantastic levels of secret coordination.

I can't think of a more illogical comparison than the Boston Tea Party to Covid-19. One was a political protest that grew into a movement for independence and therefore freedom from oppression, the other (apparently) is now a battle to be free to make yourselves and everyone you know, ill. How does that make any sense? "I want to be free to poke this Tiger with a stick! I want a known murderer to be free to run riot doing as he pleases! I want the most vulnerable people in society to get ill and die, even if that means my own Mother, because I resent those meddling communists trying to protect us from our own, sheer bloody stupidity!".

This whole conversation is insane on a number of levels. If you want to know what's going on, just look at where the money is flowing and why. That's all the info you need. All of this other tinfoil hat crap is smoke and mirrors to distract you from that, rather than any Grand Truth. You're being manipulated into surrendering all your protections and democratic rights in the false ideological belief you're doing the opposite, like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will" - Joseph Goebbels.

Dont you think all this conspiracy stuff is amazingly straightforward and convenient? All very neat and simple and all-pervasive. Especially when anything which upsets the alt-right narrative can immediately be dismissed with "Well, of course, that's what they want you to think". Anyone can justify any old gibberish with that.



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11 Apr 2021, 4:41 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
You get to make your own decisions as long they don't inhibit my freedom, so I'm not going to tell you what to believe for yourself.

Unfortunately, people who protest masks and social distancing, who continue to spread the virus, are the reason the government has to step in and make mandates and enforce lockdowns.

The virus isn't going to stop spreading until people stop spreading it.

These people are inhibiting your freedom.

Aspie1 wrote:
In the US specifically, it was released to undermine Trump and make him lose the 2020 election. The Democrats' mission was successful, and now we have Biden and no hope for America until 2024 at the earliest. Even if my kids are too young to vote, I'd want them to know who hates them and their country, and therefore not support them, as well as be immune to the leftist indoctrination at their public school.

I can see that you're really struggling with these issues. Have you considered talking with a therapist?


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