Reality, Fantasy and Speech

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Honestly, my thoughts are that this kid is going to be just fine. He's only six. I hear you that he's pretty typically ASD, but a lot of these skills you are talking about aren't really all that low for a 6 year-old. If he's able to make his dinosaurs say polite things, that skill is in there. If he can fill in a sentence, he's aware of how its meant to be said. Its just hard to take that skill out on demand. It also sounds like you are using all the correct techniques. It just takes time. One disadvantage of homechooling is that you don't get to see what all the other 6 year-old monkeys are doing. And yes, I use that term affectionately. They are still in their own world at this age. They have wild imaginations. They make up whole worlds. Its usually around seven that we reach the age of reason. Its around 7 that we are able to process logic. At least, that's the typical time frame. Before that, all bets are off when it comes to logic. That's why we suddenly can't believe a fat man in a red suit is traveling through the night to give us presents when we are around 3rd grade. Suddenly, there is logic and we understand things can be real or not real in a whole new way.

Once he can link those two things together - the moment and the consequences, he will be well on his way.


Frankly, I think assigned activities are overrated. I think it's better to engage the kid rather than dictate. The goal of public education is less learning than instilling a respect for order and authority, I think.


I never had the pleasure of attending Queen's. (I went to Brock.) I did work in Queen's Education Library for a couple of years. I found the environment stuffy. Kingston I love!


This and that he doesn't get any reward from doing so. Just anxiety and frustration. This leaves "his world," which for the moment is more satisfying. But that will change over time and as he learns that there is something to be gained from interaction with others.

I'm definitely with you on this, my political and philosophical leanings are towards the real far-left and anarchism , so I'm not a big fan of public education/indoctrination. My reasons for homeschooling go beyond the fact that the schools here lack any services or support for special needs or gifted students.
Having said that, it is vitally necessary for my son to learn how to act like he respects all the "order" and "authorities" that he will come across in life. As much as I teach my kids my values and that I believe these are false authorities (we are starting slow with this as they are still young), I also do need to teach them how to get along and survive and stay under the radar so that they don't end up in jail, or with a jackboot to the skull. So yeah, with art and yoga class, lol, it's not an issue for him to do his own thing. But eventually he will need to learn how to fall in line when it's called for- and he will not have had that "line up", "be quiet", "sit still", "fit in" stuff drilled into his head by the public schools.
Anyway, stuff I think about. Autistics can make great anarchists I think.

As an intellectual and an autistic person who as a kid was rather self-directed, here is my two cents.
First, with any of that theory of mind exercises stuff, I would be cautious about what sort of instruction is used. Much of the stuff which is out about theory of mind is based of a rather flawed theory of theory of mind which is predominant and/or is not sufficiently drawn from the autistic variations of theory of mind. Techniques which try to use the doxist variation of theory of mind of relying upon quick assumption, presuming everyone basically thinks the same, projecting ones thoughts and feelings onto others, supposing that the wishes and feelings of others have some sort of unquestionable intrinsic value, way very likely backfire, and come off an idiotic and malicious attempt to manipulate for no good reason. Whereas, an approach more suited to developing a sense for figuring what is objectively and instrumentally relevant about taking stock of others possible thoughts and feelings, figuring when it useful to try to figure these, furnishing skills for the collection and interpretation of evidence, and attempting to figure what others may be thinking and feeling, can potentially offer a more fertile track.

In my own youth I was somewhat similar. As a kid I preferred my own interests, knowledge, and imagination over the company of others. I guided my own life based on what I found be reasonable and valuable (I still do, I shall always do, and I would sooner die than live otherwise, for at that point life to me no longer be worth living). I cared little for what others thought or cared. Not because I wasn't aware that they had thoughts and feelings, but because I did not see them relevant. I did not see any reason why they would have any value and I did not see anything reasonable to support them. The reasoning behind what I thought was clear to me, while they did not do much to show any reason behind what they wanted. Thus it seemed only reasonable to side with my own thoughts.
Attempts to try to make me engage socially, follow convention, or change my mind on matters often failed. Precisely for the reason that they were not convincing. Do some degree that got me to act in basic accordance with the institutional social order through techniques which produced a clear effect on my interests. But this did not get me to any way significantly consider the thoughts and feelings of others as something worth taking into account.
On the contrary I arrived at that through my own methods which were established on the basis of my interests, rationality, and sense of value. In developing my intellectual skills and involvement with the matters which interested me, I came to direct myself in pursuit of what I regarded as valuable, and acting to advance these things in the world for their sake. It was in this that I came to the realization that I would have need of others in order to accomplish aspects of these things. This encouraged me to place more consideration into figuring the thoughts of others, and lead to situations for developing my abilities with social interaction.
It has been though philosophy, history, and the cause of the moral improvement of the world, that I have incorporated into my consideration the importance of the thoughts, feelings, and interests of others as aspects of intellectual formulation. It has been largely through introspection and the intellectual study of others that I have been able to develop much of the ways in which I seek to figure the thoughts of others.

Though to get to the point of this story. It may not be through the common methods that their sense of figuring and accounting for the thoughts, feelings, and interests may come. It may be through some other method. Though in any case it will depend upon the individuals own sense of reasonability and value. Some people can get more understanding of others from reading books and thinking things over than from casual interaction.

I've been reading through this thread, smiling to myself over how similar your 6 year old is to my own ASD 6 year old son. But this post makes me want to jump up and down with joy. Rarely do I come across someone who summarizes my own anarchist leanings, but to read it from a mother within the perspective of raising and nurturing her ASD son - seriously, I almost want to weep with relief. (It's been a hard journey with my son.) He was just recently diagnosed and we're trying to assess what kind of school setting he'll need. He cannot handle the regular classroom yet, but might be able to with an aide? I fear the worst will happen - he will be viewed as oppositional and defiant, when really he's just extremely bright, insists that his way is right and has an odd, formal way of speaking sometimes. Like, instead of saying "I don't like what you just said" he will say (with much vigor) "How DARE you say that thing to me! You are banned and deleted forEVER!" But I know, as his mother, what's happening inside is he feels pinned down and needs everything to stop so he can think. Except, I don't think he knows how to process those feelings and express them.

All that rambling to say, the anti-authoritarian in me cringes at the thought of dumping his fragile psyche into a system designed (understandably so, bc how else can you automate education) to fit him in a box? Granted, maybe there are more boxes than I had in my school years, but still. I want more than anything for him to damn the man and find a way to wire around his deficits, and not let anything stop his genius, but that doesn't work well in school. I don't want him to trust authority, yet I need him to understand when it's prudent.

On another side note, I'm really struggling with the idea of sending him to ABA therapy, as the psychologist who evaluated him recommended. It's kind of along the lines of what you said about the "behaviorist" leanings of the speech therapist. He's not the kind of kid who can have his behaviors easily pruned away. He's too darn smart for his own good. And the thought of him sitting through therapy is a JOKE. In your original post, you mentioned something about not wanting to waste thousands on therapy he wouldn't participate in. That is SO US. His evaluation testing was a NIGHTMARE. He refused to cooperate. He wanted to take the test his way. For example, at one point he started to "ink" all the incorrect answers, thereby leaving the correct answers clear and visible. I can't envision getting him to do anything in therapy will end up any different. He is a child that digs in the more he's pushed, and while I want him to be flexible, I don't want to break his spirit. I feel like we need a good structure and routine at home, a simple discipline plan to make boundaries and I fear I'm going to be told we have to go to an office for 25 hours a week or something.

Anyhow, I've rambled and rambled and I'm probably not making any sense (my ADHD is shining through) but long story short - I kind of wish we were next-door neighbors! I'm exhausted from the last six years of raising my brilliant and wild boy and it's hard to find people who understand! I wish I could get your son and my son together. It would be fun to see how they interact.

I know you didn't ask for opinions. But if you'll forgive me, I'll reinforce your instincts here. You son sounds like a terrible candidate for ABA. ABA basically trains kids like they are dogs or lab rats. Your 6 year old is already seeing the world through (his own) logic. He's going to see right through an ABA therapist. He'll think he's smarter than them, and he may be right. If he's anything like I was, he'll just learn that adults are manipulators that can't be trusted. He'll be less focused on the object of the lesson and more focused on how the lesson is being taught, and trying to figure out what the blank-ity-blank that instructor is thinking.

You can however, talk to the therapist about what they intend to do with your highly able son. Some people who call themselves ABA actually have some interesting and innovative ideas that you might like.

You have put into words to what I've sensed from the first time I looked into ABA. Cataloging and articulating, never mind putting them to "paper", is very difficult for me! I really appreciate your input and I think that's exactly what my reservation are about. I don't know what type of training or therapy is best for him, but ABA sounds so intensive. I think he's too old and too advanced for it.

I'm reading a book written by a local child psychologist who specializes in Aspergers, ADHD, OCD, Tourette's, and bipolar depression. He has termed these "attention different"; he cautions against pathologizing characteristics instead of nurturing the core genius in these children. The book is called Genius: Nurturing the Spirit of the Wild, Odd and Oppositional Child (George Lynn). He speaks from personal experience, too. His adult son has Tourette's. In the context of education (which he stresses is what AD kids need: education NOT instruction) he talks about the importance of remediation to bring out the child's best, while wiring around their worst. That's exactly how I feel: I want to work around his "worst", by bring out his best, rather than conditioning away his worst. My instinct is to get him in for a consult with this guy.

Anyhow, again, I truly appreciate your input!