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kraftiekortie
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22 Apr 2014, 10:35 am

Hey, Thal,

Sorry for being off-topic"

Have you an interest in Early Man? That was one of my main "special interests" as a kid.

I think he will improve, once he sees the benefit which arises from improvement--and he will see the benefit.



trollcatman
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22 Apr 2014, 11:07 am

Neanderthal wrote:
We considered him virtually "unteachable" in our home school environment by the time he was 12. If I could get responses, I could quickly evaluate.
Easy math questions. Baby steps . . . . . but to the point, perhaps we stiffen them up a bit. Get some square roots in there or something.

But trollcatman, to your point about eye contact, that sort of (electronic) communication is very far removed from "face to face". And no eye contact. That I why I have hopes of building something there.
I expressed this same sentiment well over a year ago. To try to reach him via written communications whether they be sticky notes or email or YouTube messaging. Well over a year of trying, six months of therapy, and an additional year of maturity and still no real progress.


I don't want to disappoint you, but I really dislike email and social media. And phones even more. I think many AS people hate their phones. I think with this, as with being asked questions, I get the feeling people EXPECT a response and I don't like that. Perhaps that is why he spoke up easily when he installed Team Fortress, it was something he wanted to say and he could say it in his own time because no one asked. Sometimes people keep asking personal questions, I get the feeling they are trying to draw out something that just isn't there at that moment. So I do the rude thing and just talk about something else.

Also, does he read/watch any fiction? I think one of the reasons people create and read stories is so their mind can "exercise" hypothetical situations. If you set him loose in a library, would he wander around on his own to find something to read? Or you sit down at a table and gather a pile of different books, see what he does. It may be a stereotype, but most coding/gaming people I know are into The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien books. Uni campus was full of those (before the movies).
Does he ask for food or drink if he isn't given any?
Oh, that Khan Academy website I linked earlier also has courses on programming and computer stuff. Since his current computer skills are self-taught, maybe with the right resources from the interwebs he can teach himself more things.

The (4x4)+4 isn't really a mathematical question in my opinion, it's more arithmatic. A much more difficult algebra question would be something like this: (a+b)(a-b) =
(answer: a^2 -ab +ab -b^2 = a^2 +b^2) To answer this question he would need to understand variables (he may already do if he knows some programming) and factorisation. Or just enter it in google, the answer is all over the interwebs. Not sure if he is at this level yet. Pythagoras is in intro courses of algebra and goniometry as well. Of course, he probably won't respond if he doesn't understand it. Would be difficult to find a question that is just interesting enough but solvable.



Last edited by trollcatman on 22 Apr 2014, 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

zette
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22 Apr 2014, 11:25 am

Neanderthal wrote:

I made a big huge deal over his response to receiving the correct order from Sonic. I would for a time ask him if his order was OK and his response would be "Uhh-Huh" if is was correct. I decided one day that I could build on that and I asked him "Is it good or bad?" and he would answer "It's Good". Hurray! So I built on that, and I just call him by name and he will usually volunteer "It's Good".
That took three months.

Same with the handling of the trash. I sometimes drive him to Sonic before I go to work, and really do not want to get out of the truck to let him in the house as by that time I am usually running late.
We get the Sonic in a paper bag and I started asking him to place his misc trash inside the paper bag. Once I had that in place I asked him to bring the bag to the trash can and place it inside the container.
Now we are at the point that we discern whether I can help carry trash from the truck or if I need to run and I can ask him to help me by bringing the trash with him and placing it in the trashcan on the back porch.
That took four months.


This example sounds a lot like what I've heard about RDI (Relationship Development Intervention) therapy -- they very carefully plan out tasks such as these and also use them to develop the relationship between parent and child. I think ABA is more focused on the steps of the task and not much on the relationship, where Floortime is more focused on fostering a relationship through special interests and less on the practical tasks of daily living. Might be worth reading up on to get some ideas...



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22 Apr 2014, 11:55 am

I know mathematics wasn't the intention of your topic, but I found out what level your question was in the US (I'm Dutch): it's part of the 7th grade curriculum. Here's the link of a video explaining order of operations, which is basically what your question was: Khan Academy: order of operations

I've been looking over there to brush up on old math skills, it's been a while since I was in school. Might be ideal for people who are not really suitable for classroom learning. Khan is even from Louisiana too.



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22 Apr 2014, 2:43 pm

Wow, lots of good responses. Thanks guys,

Korie, you asked about Early Man a few pages back, I did send DS a link, but no interest that I can discern. Thank you for that, his main interest at present seems to be Pink Floyd / RadioHead.

Stalking has paid off a bit, I just last week found his Tumblr site that DS is posting a "Song of the Day" and his choices indeed all over the place. Stuff I have never heard of. Devin Townsend. Boris Pink. Galaxi to Galaxi. Some of it metal, some of it much smoother, more like RadioHead. Really all over the place. Some of it is elevator music . . . . . . really. I will keep checking in and see if I can make sense of it.

What I would really like is if he would post some of his own stuff. Maybe once he gets a bit more confident.

Zette, you just sent me to school. I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. I will study up.

TCM, that is admittedly very basic PEMDAS stuff, order of operations. Not so basic if you don't know it. I will admit I was not taught that stuff in 7th grade. :) I am starting simple, to see if I can get any kind of response. I will evaluate the questions and try to fit them better, I do understand how important that is.
He is overwhelmed by television, has not watched a movie or program in ten years. Reading, no dice. Our house is full of books. Tolkien, Harry Potter, James Herriot, all the way to Victor Hugo and James Fenimore Cooper. No interest. That was one of the first symptoms. He would sit in my lap, or next to me and let me read to he and his sister. The game was whether he could read along and conquer the larger words. He became more and more uncomfortable until he would not sit with me any more. Age seven or so. Not sure if it was the reading, or the physical contact, but it slipped away. Then he would read in relation to his schoolwork for a time but that slipped away as well. Now he hasn't read a book in many years and there is no interest. At all.
Frankly, I do not really know how smart or intelligent he is. I sense that he is off the charts, but have no way of really knowing as I have no window into which to look.

Thanks guys,
Thal



kraftiekortie
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22 Apr 2014, 6:07 pm

Hi Thal,

Are you in Bayou Country? That's such a beautiful area!

I wish you could introduce him to someone who produces music. Perhaps they have somebody in New Orleans? Maybe show somebody a demo tape?



Neanderthal
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22 Apr 2014, 6:35 pm

Yep, bayou country is 20 miles south of us. Went kayaking this past Sunday with DD. No way to get DS in a kayak though . . . . . . . And it was a gorgeous day.

We actually have a buddy that produces music. Still sort of amateur, but he does have a studio of sorts.

I have to wait and see a bit on that though, wait to understand DS's abilities, how much he can teach himself. I have him on RockSmith for the Playstation and there are sooooo many youtube vids out there that can help.

Then he would have the dynamic of performing under pressure in a studio and/or in front of people.

You heard the story of the guy who auditioned for vocals for Jimmy Page and a band he was putting together? He could sing rock tunes pretty good, but was so shy he hid behind the speakers. He couldn't come out. So they hired Robert Plant. That vocalist? Rod Stewart. I suppose the point is that performing is so very hard for most NT people, it would be a real stretch to think that DS is going to go any further than his own enjoyment.

Anyhoo, right now he is mixing his own on FLStudio. He is doing the guitar and keyboards. And that MIDI controller has good drums. What I have been able to hear, he needs a lot of work. :)

But if he keeps at it and maybe in the future we can get inside that shell a bit, who knows?



kraftiekortie
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22 Apr 2014, 6:42 pm

I wonder how your son would feel about zydeco music. Are you of Cajun heritage?



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23 Apr 2014, 7:40 am

Many people today record music in their own studio. There are quite a few people who produce music solo and put it on the interwebs. All you need is a computer, a mic and maybe a mix panel. There are programs like Fruityloops (I think?) that allow people to produce all kinds of music.
And about kayaks... I would also never step in one of those things. I've been in a canoe once and I was really afraid. No problem with larger ships though.

Edit: Ah, I see now that FL Studio you mentioned it the new name for Fruityloops.



Neanderthal
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23 Apr 2014, 8:14 am

[/quote]Ah, I see now that FL Studio you mentioned it the new name for Fruityloops.[quote]

Yep, and just like that (snap fingers) he has progressed further than anything I will ever be able to relate to. Back in the day, I could play a bit of guitar, but old age and "meaty hand syndrome" have caught up to me. That FL Studio is waaaay out there. It has capabilities so that I know DS will probably never need anything further. Same with the MIDI controller. Looks like a keyboard, with a bunch of extra buttons. But Holy Moley! That thing has capabilities that are out of this world.

Yep, the Kayak scared me a bit this past weekend . . . . . . alligator attack sort of thing. As Sheriff Brody said "We're going to need a bigger boat!"

Kortie, no cajun ancestry. Dutch mostly. Zydeco is certainly not out of the question, we hear it some of the places that we go.



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23 Apr 2014, 9:15 am

I'm of mostly Dutch ancestry too.
Something I just thought of, do you know that your son actually reads his email? Most "normal" people check their email and social media crap every day, but I don't do that either... I dislike email and social media stuff. I sometimes get a phonecall from someone who says "I emailed you 3 weeks ago". Do you know if he communicates with other people online, in online games or forums? And about that youtube messaging, I think most of that is public so you may be careful with what you write there. Not sure though, I'm not exactly the Great Communicator either. I still have a phone that has no interwebs.

I wonder, if your son is not given food, will he ask for it or just look for something himself?



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23 Apr 2014, 11:26 am

Wow! I just read the wikipedia page on selective mutism and that explains a lot.



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23 Apr 2014, 12:43 pm

The YouTube messaging is completely private. It is just like email in that regard. I do not know why he chose YouTube, but it was his suggestion so I went with it. I coerced him to read the first message that I sent him by telling him that it was something that I had gotten for him. I know he read it because he put forth the supreme effort to say "picks".

The math message, I know he has not read. When I asked him about it last night he shook his head vehemently. Thereby telling me that not only had he not read it, but that he has NO INTENTION to ever read it.

As over the last few years, once he is "onto me" in my efforts to communicate, he shuts me down.

Of course, I will not give up. I will ask him again, and I will certainly use the proven tactic as above. I will get him something cool and send him a message, and make sure I get a response before I even tell him what it is.

And MAYBE if he wants/needs something, I still have the pathway open so he can send me a link.

50-50 that he shuts down his YouTube account to be sure that I am cut off.

Selective Mutism was new to me as well when the therapist told me about it (a year ago or so) and that indeed was her diagnosis, along with AS. I had no idea about it when I started this thread. It must be relatively uncommon, as no one on the boards suggested it. Perhaps it is not a common combination within the Autism/AS population. There is a lot of info out there, but I find that none of it applies very well directly to us, as it is compounded by the AS. All the stories that you find are so triumphant in the end because the condition was "Cured". Not so easy for us. Not that it was easy for those cases, I am sure it was very difficult. But we have a whole 'nother animal.

So we are fighting this on several fronts. The combination of the two make it particularly difficult. All (!) I want is for DS to have as rich and full life as possible. At some level, I am sure he wants the same thing, but he won't (can't) let us help him.

I want to get him back in therapy again, but am the only one in the family that has such a wish. And I can't really argue, as he was regressing for the whole time he was in therapy.

Thal



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23 Apr 2014, 1:03 pm

I'm also of Dutch descent, on my father's side. The first part of my last name means "short" in Dutch.

I really have no knowledge about these advanced music systems, unfortunately.

I wonder how your son would feel about Louis Armstrong and all the other great New Orleans musicians. Fats Domino comes to mind: he's a gentle soul whom your son might respond to.

Were you severely affected by Hurricane Katrina?

I know this seems like a stupid question (and that you've already tried this): But have you ever asked WHY he shuts you off? Please note that I do not believe, in the least, that it has to do with how he was raised. You are a very diligent father--it's rare to find that these days. I'm a man, by the way. I admire dads who step up to the plate.



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23 Apr 2014, 2:20 pm

Neanderthal

My little guy is 4, so I don’t have any helpful advice for you on communicating with your son. I just wanted to say that I think you are an awesome Dad. It is easy with a cute and cuddly 4 yr, but reading about the dedication and creativity you have put into reach your 20yr is really inspiring. Any kid/young adult who programs video games and works with professional level music software is a smart creative person.

You obviously did a lot of things right raising him. Getting any 16-20 yr boy to communicate is difficult, even my very verbal, very NT nephew at that age you could only get one to two word answers out of for yrs.

I believe you will find the key. Thank you for sharing, it really is very inspirational.



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23 Apr 2014, 2:30 pm

Neanderthal wrote:
The YouTube messaging is completely private. It is just like email in that regard. I do not know why he chose YouTube, but it was his suggestion so I went with it. I coerced him to read the first message that I sent him by telling him that it was something that I had gotten for him. I know he read it because he put forth the supreme effort to say "picks".

The math message, I know he has not read. When I asked him about it last night he shook his head vehemently. Thereby telling me that not only had he not read it, but that he has NO INTENTION to ever read it.

As over the last few years, once he is "onto me" in my efforts to communicate, he shuts me down.

Of course, I will not give up. I will ask him again, and I will certainly use the proven tactic as above. I will get him something cool and send him a message, and make sure I get a response before I even tell him what it is.

And MAYBE if he wants/needs something, I still have the pathway open so he can send me a link.

50-50 that he shuts down his YouTube account to be sure that I am cut off.


You keep asking him to communicate, which I think just adds more anxiety. I think you need to find a way to reduce the anxiety and pressure first. Have you read the wiki article? There it says that in older children and adults they often see through the trickery of getting them to talk and therefore it becomes ineffective because it raises anxiety instead of decreasing it. You said something like that yourself: "As over the last few years, once he is "onto me" in my efforts to communicate, he shuts me down." If you are afraid he will close his youtube account, might it be better not to send him messages there? If he closes that off his world will become even smaller.
I also have more than average anxiety I think. When I was in primary school I got more anxious because I knew I couldn't go away if things were too much, because kids generally are required to sit down. After a while the teachers caught on and they allowed me to leave for a short walk if I felt I had to. I often went to the toilet just to be away from other people. But the knowledge that I could leave when I want really helped. I also found it really annoying as a kid that some parents don't allow kids to leave the table when eating. Now as an adult I stand up when I want, don't care anymore if people find it rude. Perhaps for your son, it would reduce anxiety if he was told that he could end the conversation and go this his room if he wants. As a kid you need permission from adults for everything, but I realized as an adult I could end conversations when I wanted and that made me feel a lot better. Maybe this is also why it was easier for him to talk with his sister, since she couldn't force him to do things... it is a more voluntary conversation than with a parent.