Help me figure out what to say to this parent

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You may remember this post http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt213962.html where one of DS's friends conned him into getting a girl's phone number and then proceeded to harass this girl - we found out a month later when he got DS to participate in the harassment.

So, this woman (N's mother) and I have not spoken for the entire school year.

DS has remained friends with N during the school day, and it's apparent that N and the rest of his group of friends put DS pretty far down in the pecking order. However, just after school DS and N go back to being friends - so I'm not convinced that N is doing anything but covering for himself socially (which stinks, but it's a lot to expect of a middle school kid to stand against the crowd and for the Aspie.) DS asked me to talk to N's mother so they can see each other over the summer.

What do I say to this woman? I have a bunch of stuff that I want out of it; mostly I need to feel like my son is safe with this boy.

To top it off, N's brother is on the spectrum - but he's a totally different kind of Aspie than my son - closer to the stereotype (although a unique individual, don't get me wrong.) I think N's mother believes I am making up DS's diagnosis - so she can't see why N was so easily able to manipulate him. I think she still thinks the whole thing was DS's idea.

This is a tough one. Given that they have still been hanging out after the incident in question, has there been anything problematic that arose after you and the mom stopped speaking? Have they been unsupervised, but OK?

Off the top of my head, the only thing I would feel comfortable with, if I was in your situation would be maybe having him ring N up and invite him to your house where you could supervise? (Based on known information)

Of course, you'd be opening up a can of worms there, especially if you didn't want to allow anything unsupervised by you (I would not be so comfortable letting my son play unsupervised with N, based on your description).

It would be better if you could get your son focused on playing with other people, or something; but that is tough at your son's age,

I'd say no. she has refused to see it from the view of, in fact, the truth, and denies it happened the way it did. If she is too full of pride in her son, then tell her the friendship is over. If you want to show her your son was the one being manipulated you should have fried this relationship along time ago. Your son should not be even talking to him till this 'N' kid tells the truth, and stops treating your son like the runt when his brother has asperger's as well. This is something you need to take care of quickly, but then again you might already be too late, you shouldn't let your son hang around this boy any longer, he has done nothing but put down your son and ruined his reputation, he doesn't deserve your son's friendship. Having those thought in your head at such a young age is one of the top five worst red flags to me, sometimes, in hindsight, I wish I wouldn't have been exposed to that brand of imagery. Keep your son in the loop that that crap is bad too, it won't go away without you knowing for sure it is gone.

Problematic is a strong statement: however, there have been incidents at school where DS has reported this kid siding with other kids against him. They haven't seen each other outside of school or the short few minutes after school when I go to pick DS up - but technically they are in my view then.

I wish DS could see this situation for what it is (and that is with me not being entirely sure what this situation is.) We will see how things go. Thank you both for your thoughts.

Ah, OK. I misunderstood and thought they were together for longer than a few minutes after school, away from the social group.

I don't see any significant encouraging signs then. To summarize my understanding:

1) N is engages in inappropriate activity, using your son's phone, setting him up as a fall guy.
2) N at minimum goes along with the group when the group goes against your son.
3)N is capable of acting "alright" when alone with your son for a few minutes, under observation.

My son is also a terrible judge of poor character unless a person is really gunning for him and finds a hot-button issue. So, I totally get that it is going to be hard to get your son to get this. I stick with saying to try to get your son involved with other people, and if any contact is allowed, limiting it to contact supervised by you.

I thought in another post you mentioned your son was in a DnD social group. Maybe a kid from that group might be a good fit??

I think there is only so far you can go with helping your son control his friendships at this age before things backfire. So here is what I'm thinking.

1. Let the mother know that your son would like to see her son over the summer, and that since parents are in control of their children's calendars, you would like to figure out what days or times are best. You don't have to pass judgment on it or say much more than that.

2. Once you have the parameters available, decide with your son what invitations you will issue. Easiest way to keep an eye out without seeming to interfere is to choose activities either in your home or in locations you feel are well controlled - and at which your son won't need to have his phone. The old Catholic occasion for sin concept: if you avoid the occasions where sin might occur, then you reduce the odds it can happen at all.

3. Remind your son that he is responsible for his own behavior and choices, and that when he has any doubts about something his friend is asking him to do, or doesn't "get" it in any way, then he should simply decline the request, no matter how persistent the friend is.

Should she want to talk out the history, just say that you feel your son has the right to choose his own friends and you'd like the boys to work it out for themselves. Move it from your table to theirs.

I know it is hard because kids do take advantage of our kids, but we can't protect them from every hard lesson. You can ask your son why he wants to be friends with someone who has caused him so much trouble, but the choice is going to be his until the number of incidents is so high you feel you absolutely have to protect him.

As for you and the other mother ... I think the differences in how you each view your own children will be a difficult hurdle to cross. Which is why I wouldn't even try. If she wants to cross the divide, see what you can do to meet her efforts, but I think it would have to come from her. Until then, its just business.

Thank you all for your responses; I had to go meet with the Mom before I read them all...although I'm not sure that things would have hashed out any differently had I read them.

It turns out that the girl's mother had not told N's mother the content of the texts. Her son had told her he was texting greetings, and that my son was the one who kicked it up into obscenities. The girl's mother had told me that the obscene texts had started before my son was involved, so unless I misunderstood her...at any rate, basically, N's mother didn't change her opinion of her son's involvement.

It wasn't a good conversation. I'm not good at this stuff anyway - I basically stated that I was concerned about DS's safety, that I wasn't as concerned about the texting as I was that my son blames himself exclusively for something her son was at least heavily involved in.

She agreed that she couldn't supervise them properly at her home before I even suggested it and said she'd be willing to have her son come to my house - so I did get something that DS wanted: he can see his friend, but only at school or under my close supervision.

She also told me that her son "would like my son to leave him alone sometimes." Since he and DS have only one class together, that means during lunch and recess - where my understanding is that kids hang with their lunch group. I'm not sure if it's about DS dominating conversations (which is certainly likely) or if it means that N wants DS to go stand by himself during recess and eat standing up during lunch.

I did tell her that I understood that all of DS's school friends are sick of DS's special interest, and that it might be better if they told him so. She said N was "afraid of making DS mad." I can see that, but DS's real friends - don't let DS get away with crap even if he gets angry. I responded that I understood entirely if N didn't want to be friends with DS anymore, but she insisted that N wanted to be his friend. I really, really just wish this would all go away.

I am not sure what will happen with DS and N at school tomorrow. Fortunately for us, there isn't much school left....

Other than that, I feel like somebody dumped raw sewage on me.

The trouble is, if this is anything like what it sounds like, the only way to avoid "occasions to sin" is to avoid N. A kid who will do this sort of thing with a phone can get him in trouble other ways. And any adult who really believes they can keep that good an eye on kids to be sure things aren't going on behind the scenes is pretty naive. For kids like this, outgaming adults is their lifeblood.

Now, I'm not trying to say N is the worst person in this equation. I knew someone like this once. They hung out with people much worse than they were (who happened to live next door to me). The guy I knew was named Tim. At the end of high school, Tim came to me and apologised for being a (jerk). But what he explained to me was pretty revealing. Yes, the psychos he hung out with (they were so bad, if you called the local police, all you had to do was give their last name, and you'd get every cruiser they had at that address ASAP) got him into trouble. But what he said really was the worst was the fact his mother never believed he could do anything wrong. (Once, he and his brothers "broke into" their own house, trashed their mother's clothes, and peed on her nurse's shoes, and I guess they left her hints, but she was sure somebody else was trying to frame "her boys".) And he was right about that, because it didn't matter what anyone said, or how many witnesses there were, her sons could never do wrong. (This woman doesn't sound quite that bad, but at least 90%.) The point is, I kind of feel sorry for N (maybe he's not really like Tim, but that's what this story reminds me of), but his mother is creating a dangerous situation by refusing to confront what her son is doing.

theWanderer, that's pretty much my take on the situation....I'd say almost exactly. I am guessing that N learned the harassing language he used on the girl from some of the kids in his neighborhood who are pretty rough around the edges. We live in a different area, so DS isn't exposed to those kids, just N and his fallout.

I have caught N many a time colluding with DS to break the rules of our house - little rules, for sure - but definitely rules that were clear and understood by all. In fact, DS didn't start stealing candy (which we have an occasional problem with) until N and another kid taught him to do it. Little things like that.

OTOH, recognizing what you say is probably true - I'd rather have them at my house and have some control over the situation (fortunately, we live in a tiny house and it's harder for things to get past me - not impossible, but harder) than have N and DS figure out ways to sneak around without me knowing.

I'd really prefer that DS and N not be friends at all, but at this point I am offering DS the benefit of the doubt.

I understand your point, and there's a good chance you're right - but it never hurts to be aware of the potential for problems. As long as you understand that, I'd say you may have worked out the best possible solution under the circumstances. My point was that it would be dangerous to assume that "no phones" meant the same thing as "no trouble". It only means the trouble will be different...

And, by the way, perhaps N's mother is more than 90% like Tim's mother - that's exactly what Tim's mother would have done. "Well, he wasn't really doing anything wrong, he just blah blah blah until some other evil boy came along and made what he was doing seem bad." She simply seemed incapable of hearing the incriminating details, and of course that just encouraged Tim. Whatever her son gets up to at your house, I wouldn't bet that she'd take any complaints very seriously. Then again, I suspect you've got that much figured out already.

Yup, that's pretty much where I am at the moment. Sigh.

Honestly this kid is not good for your son. If I were your son's father, I would absolutely forbid your son from being this kid's friend. This kid is a conniver, manipulator, liar and a thief. Your son does not need this. This kid is a fake friend and a user.

Having been in DS' shoes... until he becomes aware of this, he will just resent any effort to separate him from one of his few friends. And since he will consider it unjust, he will no doubt actively connive and lie himself in order to spend time with his "friend" whenever possible. The OP seems to have settled on the best solution under the circumstances. Forbidding something often makes it that much more attractive, which will only give N more of a hold over DS. Somehow, I don't think that would be a good idea. There aren't always perfect solutions to bad situations.

Yup, this is exactly where we are. I've prevented DS and N from getting together outside of school for the entire school year, and he has persisted in hanging out with him at school and asking when they can get together. If I thought I could improve things by doing what you suggest, CubeDemon, I would do it.

Another weird point I'm trying to wrap my brain around: N's mother apparently grounded N for a significant length of time for deleting texts she believed were innocent. (I found this out because she complained that I didn't punish DS as harshly as she punished N.)

I fear that she will find out the truth and really punish N, and then N will take it out on DS, who will continue to accept the blame because he doesn't know the whole story. It strikes me that, though she denies her son's involvement, she might become punitive if she changes her mind - which is not, of course, what I want.

Again, I wish it would all go away.

My son has a "friend" like N. Would you believe he showed up on my front porch wanting to play? This after calling my son various names at school, cornering him in the bathroom and yelling in his face until he cried, and many many other incidents. I told him to get lost....ok not in those words, but I sent him on his way. Then of course I was the bad guy. I don't care - my son may like spending time with his bully, but I'm not going to suffer his presence.

You need to remember that usually, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and if N.s mom is being like this, chances are N has absorbed some kind of superpower to shift blame away from himself as well. So really what I would do is tell DS straight out "I don't like N, I don't trust N, and N is not welcome over here. So that's the end of that." Even if he doesn't have a whole lot of friends to hang with as it is, you are under no obligation to let him hang with a kid that will just get him in trouble.

Look at it like this, if your son needed protein and had a very limited diet as to what he could and would eat and he wouldn't eat much meat to begin with and you had to use every trick in the book to get him to eat it, would you let him eat a hamburger that had been sitting outside in the heat for three days with flies landing on it if he really wanted to eat that hamburger? I don't think you would, protein or no protein. N is that hamburger. Be as firm about N as you would the burger. While your son may not like what you say or your decision about this, he doesn't have to like every decision you make, nor should he.

Stand strong Momsparky and stick with your decisions and let him know you are going to. It's totally ok for you to not like another kid. I've told mine that certain kids can't come over here because I don't like them. It's not uncommon. If you don't trust the kid, he shouldn't walk in your front door.