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equestriatola
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03 Dec 2013, 11:49 am

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... oblem.html - I honestly don't know where to put this, so I'll just set it right here.

My parents are this bad, as the article states. I'm NOT that narcissistic as the article states (although my sister has hints of this, but that is another story). Go on, guys, tell me, what do you make of this?


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03 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

I read the article, and I do not think that a pysch doctor is seeing a random sample of millennials, and even if she is seeing a larger quantity with different problems I am not sure what you can take from that.

Parents with kids who struggle, nowadays get more help and helicoptoring from parents as opposed to the olden days when they were more often expected to sink or swim. So which is the cause and what is the result?

Frankly, a lot of the issue is economics. It is harder to get a foothold into an entry-level job now than it once was. Jobs that didn't require a 4 year degree, now do. More kids are going to college, expected to work free internships, and are loaded up with college debt. In addition there is an expectation of a certain style of living that cannot be afforded unless you stay at home with mom and dad.

In our case, I really doubt my son will launch "on time," so I selfishly do not mind if the stigma of continuing to live at home might be lower. On the other hand, I would really rather the economy not be in the toilet.



Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 03 Dec 2013, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lotuspuppy
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03 Dec 2013, 12:45 pm

Obviously, there's selection bias going on. A therapist is most likely to see those that are least able to cope with life in some way. But I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence about the same thing.

Not all parents helicopter children. I am a millenial and was fortunate enough to have a mother that treated me as an adult, even at an early age. But I have never heard of this sort of thing in older generations, and technology enables helicoptering to become easier and easier.



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03 Dec 2013, 12:56 pm

Actually, I think a more compelling argument can be made that the Baby Boomers are the generation that is growing old without ever having grown up; they have not been known as the "me generation" because of their selflessness. Having said this, certainly not all Boomers are narcissists or immature. It's a shame the same distinctions aren't applied to Millennials. I just don't understand this war on young people.



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03 Dec 2013, 3:27 pm

The phenomenon she is talking about is true. 30 is the new 18. This is not anecdotal evidence. It has been researched enough that is widely accepted in psychology (at least in the U.S.). By any conventional standard of adulthood, so many people my age do not qualify. We live with our parents, are unemployed, unmarried, immature, and unmotivated. I don't think this is just a U.S. problem either. I weep for the future. We millenials are having kids (not getting married. not fully grown up ourselves). The people who are coming of age right now are even more confused and less functional than my age cohort. It is heartbreaking. Consumerism and corporate capitalism makes cattle of us all.



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03 Dec 2013, 4:56 pm

During my previous full time job, I sometimes worked overtime, and didn't even have a high enough salary to afford to move out on my own. So, I figured, if I have a choice between staying with parents or random housemates, I'd rather live with my parents. Last time I lived with housemates, somebody used my toothbrush to wipe dirt. Also, I found my new bottle of toothpaste halfway empty all of a sudden, with a bunch of toothpaste on toilet paper in the trash can. In addition to all of that, one of my housemates used the shower towel in the main bathroom to wipe themselves after using the toilet.

A lot of us milennials do work and can't even afford to move out of the house, so not all of the blame should be placed on us and our parents. The economy is bad, "minimum wage" doesn't have the same definition it used to have, and housing and apartment prices have inflated, especially in the state where I live.



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03 Dec 2013, 4:56 pm

During my previous full time job, I sometimes worked overtime, and didn't even have a high enough salary to afford to move out on my own. So, I figured, if I have a choice between staying with parents or random housemates, I'd rather live with my parents. Last time I lived with housemates, somebody used my toothbrush to wipe dirt. Also, I found my new bottle of toothpaste halfway empty all of a sudden, with a bunch of toothpaste on toilet paper in the trash can. In addition to all of that, one of my housemates used the shower towel in the main bathroom to wipe themselves after using the toilet.

A lot of us milennials do work and can't even afford to move out of the house, so not all of the blame should be placed on us and our parents. The economy is bad, "minimum wage" doesn't have the same definition it used to have, and housing and apartment prices have inflated, especially in the state where I live.



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03 Dec 2013, 4:56 pm

I have a lot of female friends who talk about "some day when I have kids" even though they are already in their mid-to-late thirties.
:? I think a lot of them are in for a big disappointment.



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03 Dec 2013, 5:01 pm

rainbowbutterfly wrote:
During my previous full time job, I sometimes worked overtime, and didn't even have a high enough salary to afford to move out on my own. So, I figured, if I have a choice between staying with parents or random housemates, I'd rather live with my parents. Last time I lived with housemates, somebody used my toothbrush to wipe dirt. Also, I found my new bottle of toothpaste halfway empty all of a sudden, with a bunch of toothpaste on toilet paper in the trash can. In addition to all of that, one of my housemates used the shower towel in the main bathroom to wipe themselves after using the toilet.

A lot of us milennials do work and can't even afford to move out of the house, so not all of the blame should be placed on us and our parents. The economy is bad, "minimum wage" doesn't have the same definition it used to have, and housing and apartment prices have inflated, especially in the state where I live.


Even though I'm much older, I sympathize fully. The Baby Boomer generation has now been divided into two cohorts: The Baby Boomers born between 1946 and 1953; and a new designation for those born between 1954 and 1964 called Generation Jones (full disclosure: I am a member of this cohort). The reason for this split is that Generation Jones is the first cohort in American history not to do as well as their parents. And for each succeeding cohort, things have only gotten harder.

This is why I say, and will keep saying, it is time for a REAL change.



equestriatola
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03 Dec 2013, 5:41 pm

rainbowbutterfly wrote:
During my previous full time job, I sometimes worked overtime, and didn't even have a high enough salary to afford to move out on my own. So, I figured, if I have a choice between staying with parents or random housemates, I'd rather live with my parents. Last time I lived with housemates, somebody used my toothbrush to wipe dirt. Also, I found my new bottle of toothpaste halfway empty all of a sudden, with a bunch of toothpaste on toilet paper in the trash can. In addition to all of that, one of my housemates used the shower towel in the main bathroom to wipe themselves after using the toilet.

A lot of us milennials do work and can't even afford to move out of the house, so not all of the blame should be placed on us and our parents. The economy is bad, "minimum wage" doesn't have the same definition it used to have, and housing and apartment prices have inflated, especially in the state where I live.


Indeed. If the economy were in more better shape, I'd be on my own.


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03 Dec 2013, 6:16 pm

Wait, being a narcissistic is now not knowing what to do with your life or not being able to do simple things like laundry or managing their schedule and their time? I would have thought Amy had a disability because she is 30 and her struggles are something I would expect in a 18-20 year old who has just entered adulthood.

I have also noticed people are now having kids in their forties. To me that is too old to be having children. When I was in a playgroup, I was the youngest mom there because all the other moms were in their late thirties and all their toddlers they had there were their first children.

Reading the article, I felt so mature because I am younger than Amy and am not in that position and am passed it.


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03 Dec 2013, 9:36 pm

I have a strong tendency to helicopter. I cannot help it. I have two kids who need more help than most kids in navigating every day life, and I feel that because their level of disability is invisible to most, that they often don't get a fair shake and I want to level the playing field for them. All I want for them is to achieve their own measure of success and be happy.

But it is this same desire for them to achieve their own measure of success and be happy that makes me fight my inner helicopter. My kids need to fail. They need to get frustrated. They need to understand that life isn't fair. That sometimes you do everything right and you still don't get what you want. That sometimes other people get what they want despite doing everything wrong. That you have to do things you don't want to do and sometimes you don't get to do things you want to do. This is life.

I think it isn't just helicopter parenting that is leading to some of the issues that youth of today are having. It's the belief that everyone deserves a trophy and that there are no losers. It's living a life that is designed for no one to be ahead and no one to be behind. It's not just parents who are doing this. It is society. Where everything is artificially made equal when the reality is that even though equality may seem like a wonderful ideal, it just isn't...i don't know...practical? No. Not practical...Realistic. People are not all the same. We are all different. And sometimes those difference lead to our own personal benefit, and sometimes not. To build the illusion that we are somehow all equal just seems ridiculously simplistic and dangerous to me.

But these aren't the only problems. Ideas about privacy are different. About respect. About personal accountability. About entitlement.

It's much more complicated than simple helicopter parenting.

Though I am fighting the urge to add to the problem by giving in to my natural instinct to do it.

I mean, I had a new employee who was supposed to start today. She got lost on her way to work. So instead of coming to work as soon as she could get there--or even calling--she went home and figured she'd come tomorrow instead. WTH? When I was her age, that idea would have never occurred to me. But I see similar things happening with younger adults all the time. I don't think it ever occurred to her that it would cost her her job. And yes, I have seen more than one young person bring their parent to an interview. We have actually had some who have tried to negotiate a better salary or argue disciplinary actions. Grown ups. Having their moms come in and argue that they shouldn't get in trouble for violating the rules. And you know what the biggest kicker is? They LET their mom come in. Can you imagine being 27 years old and having your mom come in and have a meeting with your boss about the fact that you were written up for cursing at a customer? 8O


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cubedemon6073
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04 Dec 2013, 12:58 am

InThisTogether wrote:
I have a strong tendency to helicopter. I cannot help it. I have two kids who need more help than most kids in navigating every day life, and I feel that because their level of disability is invisible to most, that they often don't get a fair shake and I want to level the playing field for them. All I want for them is to achieve their own measure of success and be happy.

But it is this same desire for them to achieve their own measure of success and be happy that makes me fight my inner helicopter. My kids need to fail. They need to get frustrated. They need to understand that life isn't fair. That sometimes you do everything right and you still don't get what you want. That sometimes other people get what they want despite doing everything wrong. That you have to do things you don't want to do and sometimes you don't get to do things you want to do. This is life.

I think it isn't just helicopter parenting that is leading to some of the issues that youth of today are having. It's the belief that everyone deserves a trophy and that there are no losers. It's living a life that is designed for no one to be ahead and no one to be behind. It's not just parents who are doing this. It is society. Where everything is artificially made equal when the reality is that even though equality may seem like a wonderful ideal, it just isn't...i don't know...practical? No. Not practical...Realistic. People are not all the same. We are all different. And sometimes those difference lead to our own personal benefit, and sometimes not. To build the illusion that we are somehow all equal just seems ridiculously simplistic and dangerous to me.

But these aren't the only problems. Ideas about privacy are different. About respect. About personal accountability. About entitlement.

It's much more complicated than simple helicopter parenting.

Though I am fighting the urge to add to the problem by giving in to my natural instinct to do it.

I mean, I had a new employee who was supposed to start today. She got lost on her way to work. So instead of coming to work as soon as she could get there--or even calling--she went home and figured she'd come tomorrow instead. WTH? When I was her age, that idea would have never occurred to me. But I see similar things happening with younger adults all the time. I don't think it ever occurred to her that it would cost her her job. And yes, I have seen more than one young person bring their parent to an interview. We have actually had some who have tried to negotiate a better salary or argue disciplinary actions. Grown ups. Having their moms come in and argue that they shouldn't get in trouble for violating the rules. And you know what the biggest kicker is? They LET their mom come in. Can you imagine being 27 years old and having your mom come in and have a meeting with your boss about the fact that you were written up for cursing at a customer? 8O


The thing is though I have to object to what you believe here and this is why. By accepting that life is not fair and believing in this like it is absolute and came from the heavens like most people in American believe is dangerous and I have to reject the absoluteness to it. If we are to accept this belief then by this rationale and reasoning those who stood up for civil rights during the 60's should have just accepted the "life is not fair" belief. They should never have fought and if they did not and rolled over more than likely we would have segregation today. Why bother? Why try? Life is not Fair.

One of the principles that our country was founded on and I believe was that all men were created equal. I take "men" meaning all human beings. Based upon your logic what you're telling me is that some of the contents of our Declaration of Independence is fallacious? If one part of our principles is fallacious then what else in our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights is fallacious?

Quote:
I have a strong tendency to helicopter. I cannot help it. I have two kids who need more help than most kids in navigating every day life, and I feel that because their level of disability is invisible to most, that they often don't get a fair shake and I want to level the playing field for them. All I want for them is to achieve their own measure of success and be happy.


What if the truth is they cannot on their own merit? What's the next step for them?

Quote:
But it is this same desire for them to achieve their own measure of success and be happy that makes me fight my inner helicopter. My kids need to fail. They need to get frustrated. They need to understand that life isn't fair. That sometimes you do everything right and you still don't get what you want. That sometimes other people get what they want despite doing everything wrong. That you have to do things you don't want to do and sometimes you don't get to do things you want to do. This is life.


Again, what if they are unable to achieve their own measure of success and happiness on their own merit?

Our society is against negativity and having a negative attitude. Is this correct? Why does American society force people to display this optimism but seems to embrace not only a pessimistic view about life but this extreme nihilism? Why does American society have such inconsistent standards? If one should accept "life is not fair" as a basic truth than I ask why bother? Why try? This is nihilistic thinking.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

Nietzsche was right when he said "While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history."

Quote:
I think it isn't just helicopter parenting that is leading to some of the issues that youth of today are having. It's the belief that everyone deserves a trophy and that there are no losers. It's living a life that is designed for no one to be ahead and no one to be behind. It's not just parents who are doing this. It is society. Where everything is artificially made equal when the reality is that even though equality may seem like a wonderful ideal, it just isn't...i don't know...practical? No. Not practical...Realistic. People are not all the same. We are all different. And sometimes those difference lead to our own personal benefit, and sometimes not. To build the illusion that we are somehow all equal just seems ridiculously simplistic and dangerous to me.


Does this mean the founding fathers who wrote the declaration of independence were delusional? Martin Luther King Jr. did not give up on his dream, did he not? Why do you consider practicality more noble than idealism in all iterations? How do you know that the reality we live in now always will be? How do you know that it isn't permeable? The Roman Empire was the reality of the day and things were even more unfair then? They had crucifixions, slavery and all sorts of barbaric rituals. We still do some monstrous things today but have we not come a long way since then? The world may be unfair and life may be unfair but isn't the world less unfair than it was during the Roman Empire? We've come a long way. Why stop? Why spoil the mojo?

http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... modernity/

Buzz words reflect the attitudes, beliefs and thoughts of the basic culture does it not. People have their phrases like "life is not fair", "real world", "practical", etc this represents our culture's thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. Our culture is a very sensate culture. Our culture deemphasizes the transcendent, the spiritual, what is noble, what is truth, what is moral and over-emphasizes the real, the practicality, and the sensate. When I think equality, I don't think equality as in abilities. I think equality as in our worth as human beings. We all have intrinsic worth and intrinsic value that transcends "the real world". Why try to fight for equality? Why try to make sure the loser can win in someway? Why feed the hungry and the sick? We don't do this because it is practical. We do this because it is right? We do it because it is the universal law that sometimes transcends practicality and the real world.

Why did Socrates drink Hemlock instead of fleeing? It is because he transcended his own human nature. He loved truth, community and excellence for their own sake. He perceived past the real world and transcended the real world. He stared at the unfairness of the world of his day and won a spiritual victory that day. We have western philosophy because of him. He won the ultimate spiritual victory over all of ancient Athens? Where is he and where is Ancient Athens? Why fight for fairness and equality. It is because it is moral, it is noble, it is virtuous and it is righteous.



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04 Dec 2013, 5:07 am

League_Girl wrote:
I have also noticed people are now having kids in their forties. To me that is too old to be having children. When I was in a playgroup, I was the youngest mom there because all the other moms were in their late thirties and all their toddlers they had there were their first children.

Reading the article, I felt so mature because I am younger than Amy and am not in that position and am passed it.


The problem are the expectations of the generation before us, that lived during the golden 80ies and 90ies. According to those expectations, its pretty easy to do carriere and acchieve and pay a full house and everything, before you should care for getting children. So that normally should not take longer then 8-10 years, according to their expectation. So on one side, when you are getting into your thirties, you get blamed all the time for not having acchieved a hipster carriere yet (I have a good job, that is as well payed in comparison to what people of my age ear, so among my friends I am well earning...but in comparison what our parents earned the salary is ridiculous.), while on the other side I get blamed for the expectation of kids, that we cant get, because of us not caring to acchieve "real" good jobs (which are measured on the salary), to acchieve the perfect house in the green, so that we finally are allowed to receive children, according to our parents.

So you get blamed for not getting the job your parents dream off, as well that you get blamed, that because of you "not caring" for getting the job your parents dream of, you can be impossible allowed to conceive children, because what kind of life would that children have, if you cannot afford them gigantic kids room with gigantic plasma TVs and and and.... And its not about blindly obeying them and their authority, but because of them being your parents, you simply trust their experiences of life. So if they tell you, that without this and that and this, acchieving kids will end horrible, you relie on their experiences and feel afraid to conceive kids, before acchieving all of that.

Luckily there is as well the grandparents generation, that if you answer to them, why you still dont think about getting children, and listening to your problems about first acchieving everything that your parents dream of before daring to get children, give you laughing the replie: "If we would have waited until everything was perfect in our lifes, non of your parents, uncles, and aunts would exist." It does not mean that the experiences of my parents were worthless and untrue, but their experiences simply relie on the 80ies and 90ies, when "being forced to share your room with your sibling" already turned you into one of the poorest kids in class, or wearing stuff from second hand or street markets and so on. While when it comes to "really, really important" problems, I simply think that my grandparents generation, wo raised their kids in a time, when things definitly were not perfect for anyone, are better advicers for the actual situation.



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04 Dec 2013, 8:15 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

The thing is though I have to object to what you believe here and this is why.


My friend, you are taking what I wrote to too far of an extreme. Viewing it from too rigid of an absolute.

To understand that life isn't fair does not mean that one should throw their hands in the air in a nihilistic gesture of resignation. Rather, it means that one does not become stuck on the false belief that life is fair. When my son says to me "It's not fair that I have to work harder than the other kids for the same or less result." My response is "You are right. It is not fair. Move on." There is no point in pointing out that it is not fair. "Life is not fair" is simply an axiom. No point in pondering or debating it. It simply is. You just accept it and move forward. Note, I am not saying that you just accept it and give up. My son also understands that it is not fair that some children are born into war torn countries and have never known a life that does not include a very real fear of being blown up. It is also not fair that some kids like him are born into families where there is no understanding or acceptance. It just so happens that in those two circumstances, he has fallen on the side where he benefits.

This is not to say that we should not seek justice or to remedy wrongs. The civil rights movement is not futile or worthless. I am trying to find a more concrete way to share my view with you...There is no race, no gender, no nationality, no...."super group" of people who is, by nature, superior to any other group. In that sense, we are all "equals." But when you look at things on an individual basis, instead of a group basis, to hold fast to the idea of "equality"--not necessarily in terms of "rights", but rather in terms of....<sigh> cannot think of simple word to explain it..."ability" is the closest I can come, but it is not really the word I want--anyway, on an individual basis, some people are "better" than others. Some are stronger. Some are faster. Some are smarter. Some are more athletic. Some are more ingenious. Some are more diplomatic. Everyone is not the same. Everyone is not equal. In real life there are "winners" and "losers." Someone will always be "better" than you. Yet there seems to be a strong movement in the US to somehow negate this reality. Kids play games in gym class and they do not keep score so that no one "loses." Everyone who enters a contest gets a ribbon so that no one "loses." I fear that there is an entire generation out there who believes that everyone deserves a trophy. But the truth is, not everyone does. And kids who have been raised in this kind of environment are in for a rude awakening in "the real world." Guess what? You will not get every job you interview for. Why? Because someone will be better suited to the job you are interviewing for. It won't matter how hard you try or how much you want it or how much you think you deserve it. You are not going to get it. And guess what else? It's NOT unfair. It's fair. The idea that "everyone is a winner" is really only "fair" from the loser's perspective. It is not fair to the winner. How is it "fair" to fail to recognize someone's accomplishment/achievement in order to avoid acknowledging that not everyone is a winner?

When I say life isn't fair, it is not an emotional statement. Nor is it a value-based one. It is simply an acceptance of part of life. By teaching my kids that this just is, I empower them to move past it. No point in lamenting it, anymore than there is a point in lamenting the fact that I wish I had gills and could breathe under water. Instead of getting stuck on the fact, I should focus my energy on learning how to scuba dive or snorkel if I want to stay under water for long periods of time.

cubedemon6073 wrote:
inthistogether wrote:

I have a strong tendency to helicopter. I cannot help it. I have two kids who need more help than most kids in navigating every day life, and I feel that because their level of disability is invisible to most, that they often don't get a fair shake and I want to level the playing field for them. All I want for them is to achieve their own measure of success and be happy.


What if the truth is they cannot on their own merit? What's the next step for them?


There is a HUGE difference between helicopter parenting and being supportive of your kids. They are not the same thing, and I think you have highlighted the fact that I don't think that everyone can discriminate between the two. Every helicopter parent I know personally does not recognize themselves to be one. They all see themselves as being supportive. But when you helicopter, you insert yourself in such a way that you stunt your child's ability to develop their own self management skills, their frustration tolerance, and their ability to problem solve. I believe that most helicopter parents genuinely love their children. They do not want to see them suffer, be disappointed, or fail. So they "intervene" to make sure these things don't happen. In doing so, they prevent their kid from learning to handle these routine parts of life--disappointment, failure, and to some degree even suffering--which as the child grows up, actually handicaps them because they don't know how to self-manage.

I will tell you the truth. 90% of the time, my kids' abilities exceed my estimation of them. I can't even tell you how many times I have anticipated that they will not be able to handle something and begrudgingly allowed them to try, to find that they actually handled them quite well. Do they ever try and fail? Of course. But that's not a bad thing. It is an opportunity for me to teach them how we deal with failure, how we figure out what went wrong, and how we make a plan for what to do differently next time. If they were never allowed to fail, how would they learn these things? "Failure" to me is another axiom. People fail. It happens. It doesn't need to be catastrophic. It doesn't mean you should stop trying. It simply means that you learn from it and move forward.

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Our society is against negativity and having a negative attitude. Is this correct? Why does American society force people to display this optimism but seems to embrace not only a pessimistic view about life but this extreme nihilism?


I do not see my views as negative or pessimistic in the least. In fact, most people who know me would say that I have a tendency for being optimistic in a pollyanna kind of way. I place no value judgment on the statements that life is unfair and failure is a part of life. They are simple facts of life that you work around. The same as we find work-arounds for the lack of gills and wings. The fact is, I am wired differently than others and it leaves me at a natural disadvantage for some tasks like organization. This does not mean I throw my hands up. It means I find work-arounds.

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Does this mean the founding fathers who wrote the declaration of independence were delusional?


Of course not. But there is a difference between idealism and reality. Understanding that distinction has actually been a liberating experience for me. I am idealistic by nature, which in my younger years lead to a lot of inner turmoil and angst because things were not the way they "should" be. I still hold to my idealistic values. They represent my highest self. But I understand that in practical terms, they do not represent the way the real world works. Just because I believe that all people should be honest in their dealings with others does not mean they are.

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Martin Luther King Jr. did not give up on his dream, did he not?


I think you mean "did not give up o his dream, did he?" Of course he didn't. It's a noble dream. And as I already said, no one "super group" is superior to any other. And that's what he meant. But that does not mean that all individuals are "equal" in terms of abilities, contributions, and value to society. I know that thought rubs some people the wrong way because it seems to be impossible to hold the two disparate thoughts on the same plane: All people (people in the plural sense) are equal. But not all people (people in the individual sense) are equal. I have no problem believing both of those things. The two statements are not mutually exclusive to my understanding.

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Why do you consider practicality more noble than idealism in all iterations?


I do not. Idealism is more noble. Practicality is more...realistic. I find the ability to hold fast to my ideals in the broader sense while still acknowledging the discrepancies of what exists in reality to be very personally beneficial.

BTW, if you respond and I do not, it is not because you have offended me or because I do not value the discourse. It is because my life is crazy busy at the moment and coming to this forum is a luxury I usually cannot indulge in.


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cubedemon6073
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04 Dec 2013, 11:23 am

Quote:
My friend, you are taking what I wrote to too far of an extreme. Viewing it from too rigid of an absolute.


You know what, maybe you're right. I really do need to learn to stop procrastinating and get books that can help with my pragmatic issues. What is equality? What is fairness? Have you read the story of Harrison Bergeron? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Everyone is equal but to me it seems to lack something. I don't have the word. Is it that it lacks a "humanity"?

Why does it seem like the more I understand my awareness of how truthfully ignorant I am increases? There is so much complexity to these things. Every time I obtain an answer it seems like I have more questions.

For me, I use true and false in the strict logical sense. Let's talk in set theory for a moment if you don't mind. If we have Set A, which is an argument or statement, which have members a-e. To me, members a-e are different iterations. In order for A to be true all members are iterations have to be true and upheld. If one member is false then it is not true. On the other hand, if one member is true and all other members are false then it is not false.

For example, if one can find a specific instance that negates the fact that "life is not fair" then it becomes untrue. I can find an instance in which life does become fair. http://abcnews.go.com/US/outpouring-sup ... d=20865367

There does seem to be some outgoing support.

To me, based upon this one incident I have to reject the statement that "life is not fair" based upon this empirical evidence as not true. It is not false either.

It leads to this. It is not true and it is not false that life is not fair. Another way of saying this is that sometimes life is fair and sometimes it is not fair. Sometimes life can be great and sometimes life can suck. How do you conclude that it is true when logically and empirically it is not true? I do not follow nor do I understand.

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To understand that life isn't fair does not mean that one should throw their hands in the air in a nihilistic gesture of resignation. Rather, it means that one does not become stuck on the false belief that life is fair. When my son says to me "It's not fair that I have to work harder than the other kids for the same or less result." My response is "You are right. It is not fair. Move on." There is no point in pointing out that it is not fair. "Life is not fair" is simply an axiom. No point in pondering or debating it. It simply is. You just accept it and move forward. Note, I am not saying that you just accept it and give up. My son also understands that it is not fair that some children are born into war torn countries and have never known a life that does not include a very real fear of being blown up. It is also not fair that some kids like him are born into families where there is no understanding or acceptance. It just so happens that in those two circumstances, he has fallen on the side where he benefits.


I am still trying to wrap my mind around this concept that you have. Does it mean that nothing can be done about those children born into war torn countries? Should one not attempt to do anything at all. Do mean to do only what we can and accept the things that exist that we have no power of at this moment in time? Again, I still do not follow.

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This is not to say that we should not seek justice or to remedy wrongs. The civil rights movement is not futile or worthless. I am trying to find a more concrete way to share my view with you...There is no race, no gender, no nationality, no...."super group" of people who is, by nature, superior to any other group. In that sense, we are all "equals." But when you look at things on an individual basis, instead of a group basis, to hold fast to the idea of "equality"--not necessarily in terms of "rights", but rather in terms of....<sigh> cannot think of simple word to explain it..."ability" is the closest I can come, but it is not really the word I want--anyway, on an individual basis, some people are "better" than others. Some are stronger. Some are faster. Some are smarter. Some are more athletic. Some are more ingenious. Some are more diplomatic. Everyone is not the same. Everyone is not equal. In real life there are "winners" and "losers." Someone will always be "better" than you. Yet there seems to be a strong movement in the US to somehow negate this reality. Kids play games in gym class and they do not keep score so that no one "loses." Everyone who enters a contest gets a ribbon so that no one "loses." I fear that there is an entire generation out there who believes that everyone deserves a trophy. But the truth is, not everyone does. And kids who have been raised in this kind of environment are in for a rude awakening in "the real world." Guess what? You will not get every job you interview for. Why? Because someone will be better suited to the job you are interviewing for. It won't matter how hard you try or how much you want it or how much you think you deserve it. You are not going to get it. And guess what else? It's NOT unfair. It's fair. The idea that "everyone is a winner" is really only "fair" from the loser's perspective. It is not fair to the winner. How is it "fair" to fail to recognize someone's accomplishment/achievement in order to avoid acknowledging that not everyone is a winner?


I must admit that I do get a great feeling if my accomplishments are recognized. Why can't learning and playing be their own rewards? Why can't kids just go out to play and concentrate on just having fun. If the kids want to keep score then go ahead. At the end of the day it's just a game. Afterwards, get some pizza and chips. To me, grades should be a measure of what the kids know about a given subject but what is wrong with fostering learning for learning's sake and the process of achieving knowledge and skills is the reward in itself. Why focus on extrinsic rewards instead of intrinsic? I don't follow.

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When I say life isn't fair, it is not an emotional statement. Nor is it a value-based one. It is simply an acceptance of part of life. By teaching my kids that this just is, I empower them to move past it. No point in lamenting it, anymore than there is a point in lamenting the fact that I wish I had gills and could breathe under water. Instead of getting stuck on the fact, I should focus my energy on learning how to scuba dive or snorkel if I want to stay under water for long periods of time.


This is true about scuba diving and snorkeling. This is what I do not understand about this whole positivity fanaticism and this whole "You can do anything you set your mind to." I am always told that if one believes it and wishes it that it can become reality. I have never understood this at all. Based upon my experiences and observations, I have to conclude that there is an external reality outside and independent of myself and all of us. In addition, we are restricted to this external reality but not in a strict and absolute manner. Let's look at your scuba diving and snorkeling example. One can't breathe under water without gills but one can invent and use equipment to do so. We don't have wings to fly but we do have helicopters and airplanes. Is life unfair? There is truth to it but it is not strictly true.

This makes me wonder. Is there any absolute or strict truth or falseness to anything at all? It is ever possible to falsify the law of identity in any specific instance? Can quantum physics and the ideas behind Schrodinger's cat ever falsify the law of identify? Let's say an omnipotent being exists and this being can change a dog into a cat and the rate of this is infinite. The rate of how much this rate increases increases as well. We have an infinite progression of rates of change.

Wow, I just got off topic. Sorry. Back to topic.




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There is a HUGE difference between helicopter parenting and being supportive of your kids. They are not the same thing, and I think you have highlighted the fact that I don't think that everyone can discriminate between the two. Every helicopter parent I know personally does not recognize themselves to be one. They all see themselves as being supportive. But when you helicopter, you insert yourself in such a way that you stunt your child's ability to develop their own self management skills, their frustration tolerance, and their ability to problem solve. I believe that most helicopter parents genuinely love their children. They do not want to see them suffer, be disappointed, or fail. So they "intervene" to make sure these things don't happen. In doing so, they prevent their kid from learning to handle these routine parts of life--disappointment, failure, and to some degree even suffering--which as the child grows up, actually handicaps them because they don't know how to self-manage.


What is the proper way to be supportive of one's kids? How does one do that? What is the noble way to raise a child and what is the noble way to live our lives? How do we all live in virtue with ourselves and with others including our own kids? How shall we all then live?

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I will tell you the truth. 90% of the time, my kids' abilities exceed my estimation of them. I can't even tell you how many times I have anticipated that they will not be able to handle something and begrudgingly allowed them to try, to find that they actually handled them quite well. Do they ever try and fail? Of course. But that's not a bad thing. It is an opportunity for me to teach them how we deal with failure, how we figure out what went wrong, and how we make a plan for what to do differently next time. If they were never allowed to fail, how would they learn these things? "Failure" to me is another axiom. People fail. It happens. It doesn't need to be catastrophic. It doesn't mean you should stop trying. It simply means that you learn from it and move forward.


Of course, people will fail at things. This was the law proven and codified by murphy which states that "Anything that can go wrong will eventually go wrong." This happens with Murphy's law as well in a paradoxical way. This is why I can't accept the phrase "life is not fair" is true even though there is some truth to it. There is falseness to it as well. This applies to me as well. I approached the workplace in a fallacious manner myself. One of the things I did wrong was I perceived it to be more Taylorian than it was. There are hierarchies but not in the strictest sense that I saw it. I thought all one had to do was go to college, get the degree and that was it especially for Information Technology. Boy was I wrong.

I still do not know what one really is supposed to do to obtain an IT job.

It would be helpful to me if others would show me where I was wrong? If I have fallacious reasoning then please show me. You do this and I appreciate it but the thing is others would see me as a complainer when I simply do not understand and I see inconsistencies.

What does be true to yourself mean? If there are so many social moirés then how can one be true to himself? To me, it is an inconsistent and illogical standard.





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I do not see my views as negative or pessimistic in the least. In fact, most people who know me would say that I have a tendency for being optimistic in a pollyanna kind of way. I place no value judgment on the statements that life is unfair and failure is a part of life. They are simple facts of life that you work around. The same as we find work-arounds for the lack of gills and wings. The fact is, I am wired differently than others and it leaves me at a natural disadvantage for some tasks like organization. This does not mean I throw my hands up. It means I find work-arounds.


Well, maybe I do not understand what positivity and negativity even means? What does optimism, positivity, negativity and pessimism even mean? If someone asked me to take a look at a glass that had water in it. Would I see it as half-empty or half-full? What does it mean to be empty? Let's say we have a set like this. A = {{},{},{}}. We have a set filled with three empty sets. It is empty of anything else except emptiness. Let's take a look at another set B= {1,2,3}. Set B is empty of an empty set but is filled with sets of members that are non-empty.

Let's look at the glass of water. Why can't one say that the part that has the water is empty of everything else but the water? The part that does not have the water is empty of water but could be filled with emptiness and other things in the realm of non-emptiness like protons, electrons, etc. It could be filled with air. One axiom is that Existence Exists. Is the glass always filled with existence? Can a glass truthfully be empty in the absolute and strictest sense?

Let's look at optimism and pessimism. It is claimed that you're an optimist. Does this mean you're a pessimist who is against pessimism? People have negative feelings towards negativity? Isn't this a form of negativity? Let's say we have ~A meaning non-A. If we have ~~A it means we have non-not-A which equals A by the law of negation. I don't grasp this whole optimism, pessimism, positivity, and negativity at all.

Albert Einstein wrote:
“Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed the chicken depends on your frame of reference.






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Of course not. But there is a difference between idealism and reality. Understanding that distinction has actually been a liberating experience for me. I am idealistic by nature, which in my younger years lead to a lot of inner turmoil and angst because things were not the way they "should" be. I still hold to my idealistic values. They represent my highest self. But I understand that in practical terms, they do not represent the way the real world works. Just because I believe that all people should be honest in their dealings with others does not mean they are.


Therein lies the paradox to this. Let's define "real world" and factor out things like the laws of time and space and the laws of physics. Let's factor out all external entities outside of the control of the human being. The "real world" means how everyone acts and how everyone governs themselves and others. It is our relationships to ourselves and to each other. This is where I do believe attitude and belief does have some truth. You state these ideals are impractical and this is not how the real world works. What is the cause and what is the effect? Do people's belief as a collective whole cause this "real world" to be true and continued to be accepted as is and this real world can't be changed or does this truth cause the belief? Does the belief cause the truth or does the truth cause the belief? Which is the cause and what is the effect? If people as a whole rejected this truth would the "real world as is" change and the people put their foot down would this truth not be so true? In this case, does truth come from the belief or does the truth cause the belief? Is this truth really a permanent truth or is this "real world" permeable, temporary and illusory? Does the chicken cross the road or does the road cross the chicken?



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I think you mean "did not give up o his dream, did he?" Of course he didn't. It's a noble dream. And as I already said, no one "super group" is superior to any other. And that's what he meant. But that does not mean that all individuals are "equal" in terms of abilities, contributions, and value to society. I know that thought rubs some people the wrong way because it seems to be impossible to hold the two disparate thoughts on the same plane: All people (people in the plural sense) are equal. But not all people (people in the individual sense) are equal. I have no problem believing both of those things. The two statements are not mutually exclusive to my understanding.


Yes, all people do have different abilities so they're not equal in this sense. This is true and can be objectively verified. I do not agree that anyone person has less value than others in society. Once you start going down this road then we may start going down the path of Eugenics which ended up being The Final Solution in Nazi Germany. We all have intrinsic worth. You can't just look at financial and the concrete contributions.

This is the issue that I see in America today. Everyone and everything is considered strictly a commodity today. Life is much more than that. If we lose all of our sense of idealism and go into the strict practical do we lose our very souls?

[quote="King James Bible Matthew 16:26]For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[/quote]

What good is our lives and our liberties if we lose our souls in the process? In the path to get rid of one faulty belief system I fear we're going down the other extreme. I have a deep fear of this. I hope I am wrong.



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I do not. Idealism is more noble. Practicality is more...realistic. I find the ability to hold fast to my ideals in the broader sense while still acknowledging the discrepancies of what exists in reality to be very personally beneficial.


I fear we as a society are going down a slippery slope that we may regret. Idealism and Practicality has to balance out. To me, the scales are going to practicality and I fear it may go down this path in an extreme way. We don't need extreme idealism nor extreme practicality. What we need is critical thinking and we need to find this balance not just within ourselves but within our society. I am still trying to find this balance in my own life as well and for me it's tough. This one reason is why I ask questions. Those who use Enhanced Interrogation Techniques make the same rationale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_i ... techniques

This is my personality type in addition to my being on the spectrum. What is your personality type?
http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html
http://www.typelogic.com/intp.html
http://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality
http://www.16personalities.com/intp-str ... weaknesses

In addition to my Asperger's my personality type causes me to clash with others including other aspies on here. I think both causes serious issues in my relationships to others even to some of those on here.