Is this typical for AS child?

Post Reply New Topic

As you all may know by now, we're getting ready to do an ASD screening with DS6, who we think has AS. He has been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder (proprioception seeker and auditory sensitivity) and severe ADHD. What has always puzzled me are the things he gets in trouble for at school and at home that I thought maybe caused by ODD or even (maybe being a bit drastic here) bi-polar. But now I'm wondering, are these typical trouble areas for an AS child?

School:
-Arguing with the teacher (telling her "No" or "I will not")
-Interrupting the teacher
- Being aggressive (sometimes out of frustration, sometimes from what I believe is sensory overload)
-Making high pitched noises (This one I know is an AS trait)

I mean his teacher mentions him not understanding personal space and the other kids' feelings, following a little girl around everywhere, not "getting it" when kids move away from him to a different area to get some space, and saying "donut" a lot, but the things he gets in trouble for always seemed more defiant than AS. Am I wrong?

Home:
- Aggressive with his sister and sometimes DH and I (his first instinct is always to be aggressive instead of using his words)
-Arguing
-Defiance
-Meltdowns (in which he shows aggression)

Are these typically the things kids with AS get in trouble for? Or is this more likely something else going on, like ODD or ADHD? TIA.

I, myself, don't see much "autism." I see more "ADHD."

Are you doing a screening for ASD, or a full evaluation? I'd be concerned that just a screening may not be sufficient.

All those items sound like my kid, who presents with the AS & ADHD mix, with a side helping of dyslexia.

Here's my thoughts on the symptoms you mention:

-Arguing with the teacher
Classic AS, doesn't intuitively respect hierarchy

-Interrupting the teacher
Likely AS -- pragmatic language issue, not understanding turn taking in conversation


- Being aggressive (sometimes out of frustration, sometimes from what I believe is sensory overload)
Not specific to any particular disorder, just a symptom of a kid who is in an environment where he's not coping well.

-Making high pitched noises (This one I know is an AS trait)
AS -- sensory stim

not understanding personal space and the other kids' feelings,
following a little girl around everywhere, not "getting it" when kids move away from him to a different area to get some space,
AS social issues all the way

and saying "donut" a lot, but the things he gets in trouble for always seemed more defiant than AS. Am I wrong?
They seem defiant because you can't figure out why he keeps doing them even when told not to. The underlying problems haven't been solved, so the same reaction occurs.

Home:
- Aggressive with his sister and sometimes DH and I (his first instinct is always to be aggressive instead of using his words)
-Arguing
-Defiance
-Meltdowns (in which he shows aggression)

Low frustration tolerance + being continually frustrated = aggression and meltdowns

Personally I think ODD is a garbage diagnosis (at least in elementary school), basically a psychological label for "just a bad kid." Young kids are oppositional and defiant because they can't cope with what the world is throwing at them. You have to figure out what is difficult for them and how to structure the environment so they aren't so stressed out.

I agree with Zette, enough to make me want a full evaluation. If I could get and it were my child.

I hate saying this but I don't think ASD is defined by behaviors a child engages in so much as what he doesn't do and doesn't notice and doesn't understand, as well as often the sensory issues. But sensory issues can occur with other problems where a child is overwhelmed.

Thank you for your feedback.

As far as the evaluation, and this may sound a bit overboard, but we are doing 2 of them. We are doing one evaluation with a developmental specialist, and I am going to ask for a full evaluation to be done. My fear all along with doing that, however, is that he does so well one-on-one with an adult that she is likely to miss all the symptoms that we, his parents, and his teachers see every day. It wouldn't be the first time for a doctor to look at us like we're crazy for having suspicions. But it's when he's around other kids that all the symptoms are apparent. And because of that, we are going to a screening with a licensed professional counselor. She specializes in Aspergers/HFA. And part of her diagnosis is that she actually will observe Zeke at school and at home. She's the only professional close enough to us (still an hour away) to be able to drive to our small town to do this observation. We really think it's important to have observation be incorporated in some way. We will take her report and diagnosis with us when we see the developmental specialist. I'm hoping she'll even be able to get video of Zeke in a school environment.

Maybe the school can write up some observations, too? Best if you don't have warring experts.

Waterfalls, so you think doing both is a bad idea? Shoot, I thought maybe it was a good call. I did contact his teacher, and she gave me the following observations:

- Argues with teacher often
- Aggressive with peers (not always anger-based)
- Says the word "donut" a lot
- Interrupts often
- Invades personal space
- Doesn't seem to understand kids' feelings
- Seems a little obsessed with Audrey
- Makes high pitched noises at the end of the day
- More pronounced behavior outbursts when there is a sub - does not like change
- Lack of eye contact
- Rigid rule system
- Has trouble with too much noise and visual stimulation
- Great difficulty asking permission to do something - he tells someone what's going to happen instead of asking permission

And I also have collected observations from kindergarten and preschool teachers. That should help a lot.

Both is fine. I meant you said you were worried developmental specialist might not see anything. We used one and he was great, where before that a psychologist saw my child and that was awful. It depends on the person. I'm just thinking for us once the psychologist assessed it was very hard to find someone willing to reassess, and then the school gave me a hard time. It worked out ok though. And it sounds like you have everything covered with giving them both information from the school. I hope it goes well.

I remember being like that when I was a kid, but then again I have both autism and ADHD so I'm a bit of a strange case.

The only thing about doing both is that there are some tests that you shouldn't do more than once in a certain time span, like the IQ (assuming they would do this) and the ADOS, because it could skew the results. However, I don't know the evaluation situation in your area, and it may be the right call for you to do both.

Which eval is he doing first? Does the counselor who specializes in ASD also perform other tests to rule out/ rule in co morbid disorders? I had my son evaluated by ASD specialists recently (still waiting for results), and they also did a lengthy interview with me to screen for the possibility of other issues (basically anything else it could be/ also be in the DSM-V). Also, a lot of times a doctor will highlight that they specialize in ASD knowing that those docs are harder to find, but also test for a variety of issues. I would call the office and ask what other disorders they test for as part of the screening, if any.

But, I also think that if you are upfront with both the evaluators and show whomever does the second eval the results of the first, it should be fine because they will know which tests they don't need to repeat.

My son's evaluators did not visit his school, but they reviewed his IEP, report cards and all school evals and observations. A good evaluator will also know that these kids (both ASD and ADHD) will be much different in a one on one setting than in school, and will take into account a lot of what the parent reports as part of the screening. That said, if you had to choose, I would go with the one who does the school observation.

I first took my son to a developmental pediatrician, but she said she felt he was likely on the autism spectrum but did not feel qualified to do the right testing and referred us out.

The weird thing is for us, the developmental pediatrician went by the history I filled out and his observations and it seemed a lot less structured than the psychologist who observed, but the psychologist was much more subjective. She did an awful job and that caused me a lot of heartache, and struggle, and for my husband and our daughter and I don't think we've gotten over it. I mention because I think looking back, that had I known I was on the spectrum, or even wondered more than just at a very confused nonverbal level when she was interviewing me (because I recognized some things about my daughter from when I was a child) it would have made a huge difference in helping her understand rather than blame me for my daughters problems. They do seem to pay attention to parent behavior and I just want you to be able to avoid that pain from when they said my child wasn't on the spectrum and that I was and had caused her problems that I still feel angry, confused and overwhelmed by memories of. So if there's anything about you or your child's father that seems related to autism, I would encourage you to give them this information to help them come to accurate conclusions that took longer for us because the psychologist couldn't figure it out on her own.

It's a happy ending though for us, and hopefully for you whatever the cause of your child's issues in that an understanding by school (and us) that my child was refusing certain things out of confusion primarily led to interventions to help her cope with and understand the world and that's worked beautifully, she is a mature and kind and amazing person (just not the most social).

I hope you get good, open minded, and capable providers!!

You seem happy and optimistic today; I'm glad for that.

She is a wonderful kid, and this week, things seem to be going her way. I'm really glad for her!!

Fitzi, I know that the counselor can also do testing on ADHD b/c she said that, while she specializes in AS/HFA, she could do an evaluation for both (not sure what other evaluations she could do). The neat thing is that the reason she specializes in AS is because her own son (now in college) has AS.

Waterfalls, so it would be a good idea to disclose autism related info. on DH and myself, even if they're only suspicions? I wasn't sure which way to go on this, so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm almost certain that DH has AS. From hearing his parents talk, he had the same troubles as DS growing up (behavior and social), and even now he is a socially awkward engineer. As for myself, I do wonder about AS, but I'm not sure. DD4 seems to be NT.

IMO it's best if you think you may be coming across as weird to help the professional understand it's ASD weird not controlling or crazy weird. Especially for the mom, they're more accustomed to seeing ASD in fathers who are engineers and will figure that out for themselves. Others may feel differently but for us that would have probably been helpful. I didn't know though to say because I didn't understand I have Aspergers. Still don't get it but I get that saying it helps other behave more appropriately with me and my child.

Sorry to interrupt:

I think it would be a good idea to disclose AS-type stuff in you and your husband to the person assessing your son.