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Do parents respect bad kids more?

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Aspie1
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09 Feb 2019, 1:25 am

NorthWind wrote:
graceksjp wrote:
I dont actually think badly behaved kids are respected more. Treated differently yes, but respected more no. Are the standards higher for good kids? Probably. That doesnt mean theyre less respected. In fact, in my experience a badly behaved child is so much less respected.

I don't know about you, but my disagreement with Aspie1 on whether or not 'bad' children are respected more is, because I really don't think what he is talking about is respect, or at least not what I think of when I say I respect someone.

I don't think 'bad' children are respected more either. I do think they tend to be respected less. At least by any definition of 'respect' I'd usually use.

Well, maybe parents don't "respect" bad kids more in a sense of holding them in a positive regard, with or without strings attached. But they do respect them more in a sense of seeing them as an actual person and respecting their wishes and interests. Conversely, lots of parents view a good kid as a human Tamagotchi of sorts, that conforms to all their demands and expectations. It doesn't matter if he doesn't want to do that. He has no choice, because he can't fall back on his social skills to charm his parents into respecting him unconditionally, or at least charm them into leaving him alone. A good kid often lacks the same social skills, so "being good" is his only bargaining tool. Which, more often than not, makes his life even more difficult.

This saddens me. Because it makes parents' love/respect toward a good child look and feel transactional. That they treat him nicely only when he earns it by conforming to their expectations. (Which they conveniently refer to as "being good".) And when he doesn't, niceness turns to vitriol.



graceksjp
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09 Feb 2019, 2:21 am

Aspie1 wrote:
Well, maybe parents don't "respect" bad kids more in a sense of holding them in a positive regard, with or without strings attached. But they do respect them more in a sense of seeing them as an actual person and respecting their wishes and interests. Conversely, lots of parents view a good kid as a human Tamagotchi of sorts, that conforms to all their demands and expectations. It doesn't matter if he doesn't want to do that. He has no choice, because he can't fall back on his social skills to charm his parents into respecting him unconditionally, or at least charm them into leaving him alone. A good kid often lacks the same social skills, so "being good" is his only bargaining tool. Which, more often than not, makes his life even more difficult.

This saddens me. Because it makes parents' love/respect toward a good child look and feel transactional. That they treat him nicely only when he earns it by conforming to their expectations. (Which they conveniently refer to as "being good".) And when he doesn't, niceness turns to vitriol.


What makes a good kid have no social skills? Im pretty sure most well behaved children also have perfectly fine social skills. Also, being a good child doesnt mean you're a doormat. You can be well behaved and still stand up for yourself. Bad kids arent more 'charming' or whatever. Some parents just tend to give up on them because theyve been shown the kid doesnt want to put in the effort to change. But plenty of good parents of badly behaved kids dont let them get away with what they want and steer them back in the right direction.
You make it sound like being a good kid is miserable when really its what all children should strive for. You should want to follow the rules and be well respected and mature. Also, 'conforming' and 'being good' typically are more because of society's social norms and unwritten rules than the parents. The parents job is to make sure the child knows and follows those unwritten standards so they will fit in and succeed in society. Which is why they want you to be a 'good child'. They're giving you the tools you need to live in the modern world.
And yeah, sometimes ya gotta do some things you dont want to just because they're your parents, but hey thats part of being a kid. Youll do the same to your children one day too. Its just a part of life.


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eikonabridge
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09 Feb 2019, 8:23 am

graceksjp wrote:
You make it sound like being a good kid is miserable when really its what all children should strive for. You should want to follow the rules and be well respected and mature.

The problem with all that is, you end up being an average Joe/Jane.

Let me put it this way: Aspie1's life, despite it all, has been interesting. He has an interesting way of looking at life, too. I would highly recommend he collect all his writings, arrange them all, and put them into some form of a book or script. He is funny and witty, to the style of Diary of a Wimpy Kid. I can totally see his life being made into a movie.

On the other hand, you, graceksip, I cannot see too many things from your life that would qualify it as interesting. The kind of life you have lived so far, if you think about it, doesn't really stand out. The kind of message you would like to convey, again, has been repeated a gazillion times out there. You have been a good kid. But, I see your life so far as ... boring. (This is me being a bit like Simon Cowell.)

It's true that different people are after different things. You both are good people. But Aspie1 is creative and that is his strength. He has a story to tell, and I would encourage him to do so.


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Aspie1
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09 Feb 2019, 11:04 am

graceksjp wrote:
What makes a good kid have no social skills? Im pretty sure most well behaved children also have perfectly fine social skills. Also, being a good child doesnt mean you're a doormat. You can be well behaved and still stand up for yourself. Bad kids arent more 'charming' or whatever. Some parents just tend to give up on them because theyve been shown the kid doesnt want to put in the effort to change. But plenty of good parents of badly behaved kids dont let them get away with what they want and steer them back in the right direction.
When I was growing up, I wanted more than anything for my parents to give up on me. Or better yet, make me live in the streets. (I got the idea from "Hansel and Gretel".) I also remember seeing a short documentary on street children in 3rd-grade social studies, and feeling REALLY envious. From time to time, I tried to get my parents to give up on me by deliberately misbehaving. That didn't work! :x The punishments only intensified. I also tried talking to a therapist about it, but after she mocked me and/or took my parents' side the first few times, I realized she was useless in helping me. So I turned to alcohol, and at age 12 to boot.

graceksjp wrote:
You make it sound like being a good kid is miserable when really its what all children should strive for.
Here's something nobody will ever admit to themselves: good kids are convenient. People like convenience. So when parents "set high expectations for their kids",it's very convenient when kids meet the expectations without any pushback. But people don't always respect things that are too convenient; they take them for granted. As opposed to knowing how lucky they are to have them, or at least understanding that things could be worse.

graceksjp wrote:
And yeah, sometimes ya gotta do some things you dont want to just because they're your parents, but hey thats part of being a kid. Youll do the same to your children one day too. Its just a part of life.
What if it didn't have to be this way? :idea: What if childhood could be a truly happy time, like adulthood after turning 21? As opposed to a prison sentence, only with nicer 3 hots and a cot. And my own kids? Please! I decided to never have kids, and for a good reason. I'd relish my power so much, my kid would join the Marines right out of high school, and rave about how much freedom he gets in boot camp. Unless, of course, he's a bad kid. ;)



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09 Feb 2019, 11:49 am

Ok see now I just feel like you're basing all your answers off your own childhood. Which is simply one out of billions. Why in the WORLD would you want to live on the streets?? Im pretty sure you wouldve rather grown up with your family than been shuffled through several sh***y foster homes. And sure not all therapists are great, but you're also judging her through the lenses of a clearly resentful young child. She probably 'sided with your parents' because no therapist is going to encourage bad behavior or running away.
Childhood is a happy time for most people. Its definitely not a prison sentence. Maybe for a few people, but Id say the vast majority of well adjusted adults look back at their childhood with fondness.
And yeah, if you behave badly you get punished. Shocker! :roll:


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09 Feb 2019, 2:19 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
sorrowfairiewhisper wrote:
I'm the scape goat of the family. My brother can kick off and do what he likes, so can my younger brother, be rude, obnoxious and passive aggressive/cynical. I'm quiet and reserved and got it in the neck for the slightest thing.

I sympathise with others that are/were in similar positions but look at it this way, kids that were popular in school growing up were admired and respected right? well when they leave school and go out into the real world, they're no longer on that pedestal, same goes for kids. Parents that have the golden child, will grow up to be selfish but in the real world, they won't get the same kind of pandering or attention like they got from there parents.
This post makes me wonder if the conventional nuclear family model is, well... flawed. Not wrong, not bad---but flawed. Parents having their child and their exclusively leads to feelings of possessiveness and self-entitlement. And like with financial greed, when a "good" child delivers "good" results too readily, parents get greedy for more and more "goodness". Conversely, it leads to feelings of being trapped for the child. He can't move out, because he doesn't have money. He can't run away, because the police will just bring him back, to be punished. And suicide---let's not go there! It's no wonder that many teenagers start using drugs and joining gangs the minute they attain a semblance of adult size and abilities. Mind you, it's the BAD kids who can pull that off; the good kids can only fantasize about it and sneak whiskey from the fridge (like I used to).

"But what's the alternative?" I really like the tribal model, like among early humans and some of today's African bushmen tribes. A large collection of families---like 20 or more---raises each other's kids communally. Kids either rotate homes on an informal schedule, or are simply considered to belong to any and all parents. The adults raising all kids act as checks and balances of each other. Kids don't have undiluted exposure to the toxicity of a nuclear family: strictness for no good reason, parents fighting in front of them, lack of pets, and rigid demands of straight A's. (I bet that's why it's called "nuclear". :D hehe) Instead, kids have a diverse set of adults looking out for them without turning it into a power grab, as well as numerous playmates. Kids can also choose to live in a compatible home, like a home with many pets. Parents, in turn, aren't bound to a child they're unhappy with, be it a bad child that's "overly" bad, or a good child that's not delivering expected results. Instead of saying "I'm very disappointed in you" :roll:, they can dedicate time to a more compatible they're NOT disappointed in. Win-win.

The above was inspired by a book: "Island" by Aldous Huxley. (No relation to the Michael Bay film of the same name.)



Thank you for mentioning the book "island" by Aldous Huxley. I've never heard of the term nuclear. Very insightful and I agree with what you said about the family model being well flawed. I dont blame parents if they screw up though, sometimes they don't know any better due to social engineering or conditioning, they've been misguided themselves and maybe not had the best influences or upbringing themselves growing up. Some cultures have large families or a supportive network, some people had grandparents, aunts and uncles growing up, I never had any of that myself.



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09 Feb 2019, 3:03 pm

sorrowfairiewhisper wrote:
Thank you for mentioning the book "island" by Aldous Huxley. I've never heard of the term nuclear. Very insightful and I agree with what you said about the family model being well flawed. I dont blame parents if they screw up though, sometimes they don't know any better due to social engineering or conditioning, they've been misguided themselves and maybe not had the best influences or upbringing themselves growing up. Some cultures have large families or a supportive network, some people had grandparents, aunts and uncles growing up, I never had any of that myself.
An extended family approximates the tribal model of Mutual Adoption Clubs (MACs), but it has limitations. It only works like a MAC when there are many kids in the extended family and the adults aren't overly cohesive, so that the kids could band together and form alliances somehow. When it's many adults working as a single unit and only one kid, like in my case, it's as flawed as a nuclear family, because all the adults are still one power structure that rules over the child. And they rule even harder over a good child. With MACs, participating families have little connection to each other, so changing households offers a whole new environment. While it's not mentioned in the book, extended families can technically join the same MAC as multiple nuclear families, thus following the letter of the concept, but not the spirit of the concept.

I stand by my opinion: My life as a kid would not be anywhere near as difficult if I were a bad kid. But because I set expectations of goodness very early on, due to eagerness to please and/or fear of punishment, I got what I deserved.



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09 Feb 2019, 7:06 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
I stand by my opinion: My life as a kid would not be anywhere near as difficult if I were a bad kid. But because I set expectations of goodness very early on, due to eagerness to please and/or fear of punishment, I got what I deserved.


You really dont think it wouldve been worse to: be badly behaved and constantly punished, not be respected, not be well liked, be looked down upon in your community, face difficulties in school and work, and have a strained relationship with your family?
You dont think it wouldve been worse to: end up with a bad crowd of people, be peer pressured into drugs and alcohol, destroy your mental and physical well being, have multiple health issues, potentially drop out of school and end up broke uneducated and miserable with no one willing to hire you, potentially be caught and end up in jail for several years, potentially end up dead- or worse end up responsible for the death of someone else and be left living with that guilt for the rest of your (probably shortened) life?

Right, sure being a good kid is totally not a good thing. (said literally no one ever) :roll:


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10 Feb 2019, 12:46 am

graceksjp wrote:
You dont think it wouldve been worse to: end up with a bad crowd of people, be peer pressured into drugs and alcohol, destroy your mental and physical well being, have multiple health issues, potentially drop out of school and end up broke uneducated and miserable with no one willing to hire you, potentially be caught and end up in jail for several years, potentially end up dead- or worse end up responsible for the death of someone else and be left living with that guilt for the rest of your (probably shortened) life?

Yeah, yeah! :roll: But there's something to be said about "live fast and die young". Especially considering that I first wanted to "die young" when I was 5. Five! With forced naps, random punishments and not knowing why I got them, eating disliked foods, and being a dumping ground for my parents' anger, death didn't seem so bad. Even though I thought of myself as the Kindest Child Ever Lived, and believed that I'll someday be beatified as a saint. (mind you, neither me nor my family is Catholic). Heck, Mozart, Kurt Cobain, Tupac, and Chester (Linkin Park singer) all lived fast and died young (or sort-of-young), and people today definitely respect them. No clue if they were good or bad kids, though, so it's hard to say how much their parents respected them.



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11 Feb 2019, 8:25 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Yeah, yeah! :roll: But there's something to be said about "live fast and die young". Especially considering that I first wanted to "die young" when I was 5. Five! With forced naps, random punishments and not knowing why I got them, eating disliked foods, and being a dumping ground for my parents' anger, death didn't seem so bad. Even though I thought of myself as the Kindest Child Ever Lived, and believed that I'll someday be beatified as a saint. (mind you, neither me nor my family is Catholic). Heck, Mozart, Kurt Cobain, Tupac, and Chester (Linkin Park singer) all lived fast and died young (or sort-of-young), and people today definitely respect them. No clue if they were good or bad kids, though, so it's hard to say how much their parents respected them.


...I think people like Mozart got respected because they did something extremely significant in their lives. Not because they were well or not very well behaved.
And while it is sad that you felt like that so young, perhaps you dont remember being five perfectly? (If you do, than major respect to you. I know how terrible it is to be cursed with such a thing) Maybe the punishments werent so random but tiny five year old you just saw it that way? Im pretty sure 'forced naps' and 'eating disliked foods' is on every five year old list of grievances against their parents. I know that a number of punishments I got as a child seemed ridiculous, but now I understand my parents much better. (or maybe u just got sucky parents man, i dunno. still, you should want to live a long and healthy life anyway because things can always get better! u never know what wonders await)


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02 Mar 2019, 10:08 am

graceksjp wrote:
Im pretty sure 'forced naps' and 'eating disliked foods' is on every five year old list of grievances against their parents.
Well, yeah. But what if it didn't have to be this way? What if a 5-year-old could have a life as happy as that of a 25-year-old? Is it too much to ask?

I think the good kids/bad kids dichotomy a lot of it has to do with social skills. Not stuff like manners, which good kids have plenty of, but rather deception skills. Bad kids can lie and manipulate their way into happier childhoods; good kids just get caught and punished. So parents respect bad kids more because they see more "goodness" on the surface obscuring the bad parts, or even accept the "badness" as part of the kid and let it be. Good kids tend to be more "transparent" when they do bad things, and therefore get punished harder for not meeting the "goodness" expectations. In fact, good kids are the ones who fall for the world's biggest lie: "You won't be punished if you tell the truth." :roll: Bad kids know better.



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02 Mar 2019, 4:38 pm

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Aspie1 wrote:
graceksjp wrote:
Im pretty sure 'forced naps' and 'eating disliked foods' is on every five year old list of grievances against their parents.
Well, yeah. But what if it didn't have to be this way? What if a 5-year-old could have a life as happy as that of a 25-year-old? Is it too much to ask?

I think the good kids/bad kids dichotomy a lot of it has to do with social skills. Not stuff like manners, which good kids have plenty of, but rather deception skills. Bad kids can lie and manipulate their way into happier childhoods; good kids just get caught and punished. So parents respect bad kids more because they see more "goodness" on the surface obscuring the bad parts, or even accept the "badness" as part of the kid and let it be. Good kids tend to be more "transparent" when they do bad things, and therefore get punished harder for not meeting the "goodness" expectations. In fact, good kids are the ones who fall for the world's biggest lie: "You won't be punished if you tell the truth." :roll: Bad kids know better.


Ok but naps and disliked foods are essential for a growing childs health. So its the parents job to make sure the kid gets them- even if the kid doesnt want to.
You act like bad kids dont get punished. Good or bad, a kid that misbehaves gets punished. Thats how it works. My brothers were saints compared to me as a child, but they still got punished for doing the wrong thing. Actually, in my family it was the opposite of your theory. My brothers usually got off way easier because my parents believed them over me since they had a better track record of good behavior.


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03 Mar 2019, 9:53 am

graceksjp wrote:
Ok but naps and disliked foods are essential for a growing childs health. So its the parents job to make sure the kid gets them- even if the kid doesnt want to.
OK, but oftentimes, "caring about the child's health" is a thinly veiled excuse for power exertion. Parents may rationalize it somehow, and NT kids many not realize it altogether, but aspie kids know the truth. In other words, parents put the child down for a nap just show him they're in charge, even when they know 100% the child won't fall asleep. And when that child uses nap time to make suicide plans in his head, are naps REALLY that beneficial?



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03 Mar 2019, 10:04 am

I never forced naps on my kids.
I never forced food on them - only I didn't let them eat snacks or drink anything but water so they could learn the reason they have to eat is their hunger.
I never forced warm clothing on them, even in the winter. When a toddler was stubborn to go outside without a coat, I just packed the coat, so it was there when she learned the reason to put it on.

Apparently, I'm a bad parent.


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05 Mar 2019, 2:33 am

You really see everything upside down, don't you? I haven't read all the discussion but I'll start by saying "respect" is supposed to be a POSITIVE feeling. Fear is not respect. Pity is not respect. Exhaustion is not respect. Fear, pity and exhaustion can all generate actions of the type you've described, but none of that is respect.

Bad kids exhaust parents. Parents will bend out of frustration, all while knowing they shouldn't. There is no respect at all in that. Just a hope the kid will grow out of it and turn out OK despite everything.

Parents don't see a more whole person in bad kids; they can't figure them out and they give up trying to. Consider this: if the child's real needs were being met, they wouldn't be "bad." Kids are usually bad because their TRUE needs are NOT being met, but they can't figure out what those needs are and neither can the parents. What you see as parents meeting the child's needs is an exhausted parent giving a sugar coating as a way of escaping the impossible task of solving whatever the invisible real problem is. Before my son was diagnosed as ASD many people saw him as a "bad" kid. I knew he wasn't "bad," the world of adults just coudln't figure out what he needed. Thank goodness we discovered he was ASD and I finally had keys to solve the mystery. It changed everything. I promise you, he was MUCH happier when we were able to meet his ACTUAL needs. Kids don't want a pile of sugar and treats and toys and movies and complete freedom; NONE of that actually makes them happy. Children are people, and people need a sense of purpose, direction, meaning, and value.

And the men who are jerks thing you mentioned ... women don't marry jerks. Or, when they do, they divorce them. Women don't want jerks. It's also true that some guys put on a show for the world and act differently in private, so you have no way of knowing what kind of men they actually are from the little you've been able to observe. We've gone round and round on that on the love and dating board in year's past and I'm not going to do that here.

Sometimes it feels like you have this need to believe the world is stacked against everything good so you'll have permission to be a bad person. I know life has frustrated you, I know your upbringing was far from positive, but that doesn't mean everything is actually flipped on its head. It does mean there is a lot going on that you don't see or understand. You have ASD; the inability to see and understand accurately is obviously part of the diagnosis. Of course the confusion is discouraging and frustrating. But deciding that parents respect bad kids or women are attracted to jerks isn't going to help. I wish I had a magic key for you but I don't.


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05 Mar 2019, 10:39 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
... You really see everything upside down, don't you? ...
... It does mean there is a lot going on that you don't see or understand. You have ASD; the inability to see and understand accurately is obviously part of the diagnosis. ... I wish I had a magic key for you but I don't.

Sometimes I think you shouldn't lecture when you are the one in need of learning. Your inability to see is astounding. Have you analyzed yourself with the sentences above?

Re-read the first message in this thread.

Aspie1 wrote:
... I, on the other hand, considered myself to be the Kindest Child Ever Lived; I even hoped to be beatified as a saint one day. (I'm not Catholic.) ...

It's lighthearted humor. Much like the popular "Diary of a Wimpy Kid." As I have said, Aspie1's writing style is about "honor achievements that first make people laugh, and then make them think." He is creative. Just relax and enjoy the thread. Then, think.


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