Kindergartener School Trouble- any advice please!

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kraftiekortie
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31 Oct 2019, 8:22 pm

There are disadvantages to "big schools," too.

You get the anonymity----but a kid needing help can get "lost in the shuffle" very easily.

How is your stepson in his reading, in his math? I forgot to ask.



Juliette
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01 Nov 2019, 12:50 pm

Just reading your post .... it’s pretty much a duplicate of where my youngest son was at, at that very same age. I was someone who worked with special needs children, and I placed my son, initially, in a private School in England(same one my older son had attended) and staff, parents, students felt truly like family. However, things changed dramatically when it was time for my youngest to attend. He didn’t cope in this environment at all, and I had him diagnosed ASD while there. Quite the process. I then moved him to a mainstream infants school, where, despite my educating them through meetings on approach, behavioural guidance etc, he went on to regress significantly.

They were lovely people, but had no genuine understanding of the damage they were doing to him(eg they’d remove the stars/stickers from him which he’d earned, IF he didn’t comply in any way with their requests... He needed a quiet space, removal from the classroom at times when he felt overwhelmed, and assistance with transitions(PECS), a visual timetable to ease transitions etc. They started to treat him as if he were a nuisance, and in turn, it became incredibly difficult to get him into the school, and once there, they would phone me within a short time, to tell me to come take him home, as he wouldn’t return to the classroom after breaks. He regressed dramatically, and became stick thin, refusing to eat. The stress of the environment was toxic, in spite of intervention.

I got the NAS involved, but even they were frustrated with the attitude of older staff. So, I researched to the hilt all I needed to know about Home Ed. I went onto a wonderful Home Ed site, became a home ed guru of sorts ... very involved in helping others and providing the latest Worldwide Home Ed. News etc. Put loads of info on my blog about the process, and was interviewed by Autism Today in the US.

Home Ed was the best thing I could have done for my son. He is now turning 21 in a month’s time. He went on to become a voice actor in video games, a theatre and screen actor with ties to the famous Brit School here in England. He’s a singer/songwriter/musician, and heading off to Uni in London(was accepted and is enjoying a gap year at the moment).

Truly wish you well in your journey, whatever you choose to do for your son. Some on the spectrum can get through relatively unscathed in school(as I sort of did)... but far too many are sinking rather than swimming, and there is nothing more important than the mental health of your child. It’s our job as parents to ensure we advocate and safeguard against what can be a very damaging environment, if left unchecked.



DW_a_mom
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01 Nov 2019, 2:40 pm

Juliette wrote:
Just reading your post .... it’s pretty much a duplicate of where my youngest son was at, at that very same age. I was someone who worked with special needs children, and I placed my son, initially, in a private School in England(same one my older son had attended) and staff, parents, students felt truly like family. However, things changed dramatically when it was time for my youngest to attend. He didn’t cope in this environment at all, and I had him diagnosed ASD while there. Quite the process. I then moved him to a mainstream infants school, where, despite my educating them through meetings on approach, behavioural guidance etc, he went on to regress significantly.

They were lovely people, but had no genuine understanding of the damage they were doing to him(eg they’d remove the stars/stickers from him which he’d earned, IF he didn’t comply in any way with their requests... He needed a quiet space, removal from the classroom at times when he felt overwhelmed, and assistance with transitions(PECS), a visual timetable to ease transitions etc. They started to treat him as if he were a nuisance, and in turn, it became incredibly difficult to get him into the school, and once there, they would phone me within a short time, to tell me to come take him home, as he wouldn’t return to the classroom after breaks. He regressed dramatically, and became stick thin, refusing to eat. The stress of the environment was toxic, in spite of intervention.

I got the NAS involved, but even they were frustrated with the attitude of older staff. So, I researched to the hilt all I needed to know about Home Ed. I went onto a wonderful Home Ed site, became a home ed guru of sorts ... very involved in helping others and providing the latest Worldwide Home Ed. News etc. Put loads of info on my blog about the process, and was interviewed by Autism Today in the US.

Home Ed was the best thing I could have done for my son. He is now turning 21 in a month’s time. He went on to become a voice actor in video games, a theatre and screen actor with ties to the famous Brit School here in England. He’s a singer/songwriter/musician, and heading off to Uni in London(was accepted and is enjoying a gap year at the moment).

Truly wish you well in your journey, whatever you choose to do for your son. Some on the spectrum can get through relatively unscathed in school(as I sort of did)... but far too many are sinking rather than swimming, and there is nothing more important than the mental health of your child. It’s our job as parents to ensure we advocate and safeguard against what can be a very damaging environment, if left unchecked.


Thanks so much for sharing your story, and letting us know how well your son is doing now. I always wonder how things have turned out for the many different families I have posted with on this board over the years.


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Juliette
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01 Nov 2019, 8:20 pm

Dear DW - you have always been one of my favourite people on here, wise beyond words! Hope you and your children are doing well? Have read some of how they're getting on, and you remain an inspiration.xx



eikonabridge
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03 Nov 2019, 4:09 am

SocOfAutism wrote:
He has some accommodations, such as getting to work with the nice sped teacher, and having a weekly social skills lessons with the also nice school counselor.

That's the part I am very much against: social skills lessons. We start by looking at our children as defective, and everything goes downhills from there. Instead, I think we should look at our children as perfectly fine the way they are. There is ZERO need for social skills lessons. They will learn to socialize on their own, no different from neurotypical children. What autistic children need is brain development: intellectual development. Once they are intellectually developed, everything else falls into place.

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The principal and main (the non sped) teacher are flipping their sh** over our son “refusing” to do some things and moving around on his own when his requests are denied.


To me, autism has been with us for 10,000 years. Public schools has been with us for less than 200 years. Less than 100 years in many countries. The problem with public schools is the desire for "economy of scale." So, they formulate one single way of teaching children. Whoever doesn't fit in, is considered abnormal.

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What can I do?


What we did was private Montessori school. Let's face it: Montessori is all about autistic children. It's all visual-manual. Public school teachers don't get paid by you, directly. They owe zero loyalty to you. Private schools teachers are much more willing to accommodate, at least that was our experience.

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What kind of person do I take him to in order to get more accommodations or at least to train him into performing at a more socially acceptable level?


Socially acceptable at age 5? Are you kidding me? You know, children are entitled to be children. Aim for middle school instead. Let your son be who he is, for heaven's sake.

I always tell people I spoon fed my daughter until age 10. If you think she is intellectually behind, think again. She is consistently at the top of her class, OK? She is more matured than her neurotypical peers. No one would have guessed that she was spoon fed until 10 years old. My point is: I am not going to change my daughter's natural schedule just to please other people.

The example I always give is sea turtles. Sea turtles are fully independent on their first day: they hatch out of their shells, start running towards the ocean, jump into the water, start to swim, and fetch food for themselves. All on day one. In contrast, human babies don't become independent until 18 years later. If you admire sea turtles, go ahead, raise your sea turtle babies. I don't want sea turtle babies, namely neurotypical children. I want my autistic children, they are so much more fun to raise. I raise my autistic children according to their own schedule. I am not going to turn my children's schedule upside down just to please other people.

Stop looking down on your children. Treat them as equal-rights fellow human beings. I read my email communication with their teachers to my children. I don't do things behind my children's back. Never for one second have I thought of my children as defective. Children are entitled to be children.

Focus instead on the development of their brains: deep reasoning skills. That's what they really need. (And that includes reading skills.) I just hate it when I see parents wasting time on all those social skills aspects, making friends, etc. Because when parents focus on all those irrelevant aspects, they invariably forget to develop the deep reasoning skills in their children. These children have big, powerful brains. And what I see is most parents just let their children's brains go idle.

Once their brains are developed, all other issues can be addressed much more easily. See for instance:
http://www.eikonabridge.com/fun_and_facts.pdf

I typically scream at school teachers whenever they apply punishment and rewards. I tell them, com'on, don't treat autistic children as circus animals. Have some respect, please. Use fun and facts, instead.


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eikonabridge
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03 Nov 2019, 4:34 am

I also told my son about the story of the frog and the scorpion, since he was in his first grade, I believe. Well, the story is that the scorpion wanted to get to the other side of a river, but couldn't swim. So he asked the frog to carry him. Frog said, no way, if I carried you, you would sting me. Scorpion said, no, I wouldn't sting you, because if I did, you would die, and since I cannot swim, I would die, too. So frog carried scorpion on his back. Halfway through the river, scorpion stung the frog. Frog asked in pain: why did you sting me? Don't you see that we are now both going to die? Scorpion replied: "I can't help it, it's in my nature!"

So, nowadays, when I walk my children to school, and my son pushes the buttons (for pedestrian crossing lights) many time in both directions, and if I ask him why he would do that, he would answer: "I can't help it, it's in my nature!"

Similarly, I've told the story of the frog and the scorpion to the children of another family. The other day, we went out to dinner with that family to a salad buffet place. Their son touched the ice cream of the mother. My son, as the social justice warrior as he was, approached the other boy and scolded at him: "Why did you touch the ice cream of your mother? If you want ice cream, you should go and get your own." The other boy smiled and replied: "I can't help it, it's in my nature!" My son then had the biggest grin on his face, and walked back to his seat. He was satisfied with the answer. Ha ha.


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SocOfAutism
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03 Nov 2019, 9:19 am

Thank you all for sharing your stories. If not for this kind of information, I would basically have no information (to practically work with).

My son hasn’t been diagnosed with autism, and I doubt he is on the spectrum. But he hasn’t done all their testing yet, so who knows. Autism IS a big part of our family because my son learns how to be a man from his dad, who is autistic. The ADHD behaviors have been harder for us, as they’re not as familiar.

Our son’s PCP is a much awarded pediatrician. He says our son is uncommon but normal. The children’s clinic says he needs medication and has ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and needs autism testing. The children’s center said they recommended we either switch schools and get an educational advocate, or homeschool for at least the rest of the Kindergarten year.

I’m filing the homeschooling paperwork tomorrow. I was actually a volunteer ESL teacher/tutor for several years, and my highest degree is a masters, so it’s all stuff I’m fairly familiar with.

I admit I am conflicted with the social skills. Academically, I agree, people should form those on their own. But it seems that my son’s worst trouble is in behaving honestly, not politely. People will forgive a child sh*tting his pants, but not telling a person to their face what they think. It holds adults to a higher standard of behavior than they are used to when dealing with children.

I’m going to have to pick and choose what I teach him about this. I do think social scripts will help him, but I like his innate morality and creative thoughts. I’m not going to try to “retrain” him.

Kraftie-he’s a grade above in math.

A side note-I found my own school records from K-2 in the basement. I noticed that there was no behavior grade until the second grade, which was 1984-1985. I also found that I had missed an amazing number of days (115 one year) and yet still got As and Bs. I think standards were a lot different then.



kraftiekortie
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04 Nov 2019, 8:35 am

That's a big plus that he's doing academically well. More than you think.

There are boundaries which kids should not be allowed to breach. Being disruptive in class is detrimental to the other students' learning. I was disruptive in class myself. I used to get thrown out---on a frequent basis. In my heart of hearts, I always knew why. I wasn't a rebellious kid.

There are people who swear by homeschooling; there are people who think it's unwise. I really can't offer advice about homeschooling---because I've never experienced it because didn't have it in the 70s, and I know only a couple of people who have had homeschooling. Both say it has its advantages and disadvantages.

Make sure you learn the academic standards of his state, and that he meets them. That's really the most important thing. And that he mostly at least "likes" what he is doing in school.



eikonabridge
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04 Nov 2019, 10:10 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are boundaries which kids should not be allowed to breach. Being disruptive in class is detrimental to the other students' learning. I was disruptive in class myself. I used to get thrown out---on a frequent basis.

So, was that a behavioral problem, or lack of reasoning skills?

See, when people start down the rabbit hole and view these issues as behavioral problems, they could be stuck with the same issues even 20+ years later, not moving one inch from where they were.

The simple fact is that: a student with reasoning skills will NOT be disruptive in class.

So, more than setting up rules and punishment and things like that, what should have been done before all these problems happen, is to develop the brain of the children. Develop their deep thinking, reasoning skills. Deep thinking skills only happen when there is "outer feedback loop." For autistic children, that means visual-manual outer feedback loop.

See, a mother recently told me that she drew a picture and put it in a booklet, and even before she pull out the booklet, his son already understood what she wanted him to do. I mean, the boy is 11 years old. It took about 3 years before the mother did the drawing and booklet I asked her to do. That's the problem with parents. They have zero idea about visual-manual communication. You do examples in front of their eyes, and guess what? They themselves don't follow up. Eleven years wasted. Just imagine if the boy was developed visual-manually from age 1. The plain fact is the brain of the boy has been left idle for 11 years, because people look at everything from behavioral point of view. Guess what? They turn perfectly fine children into children full with escapism, full with violence issues. Children don't speak? Give them speech therapy. Children's don't make friends? Give them social skills training. How has all that work out, huh? And then, they say: "There are boundaries which kids should not be allowed to breach." Give me a break. Children are not born with behavioral issues. You don't develop their brains and you keep applying punishment and rewards, and of course you drive these children to the edge.

Autism is part of what's normal. It has been part of what's normal for 10,000 years. Public schools are not part of what's normal. So, if anything needs to be changed, it's our school system.


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Last edited by eikonabridge on 04 Nov 2019, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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04 Nov 2019, 10:11 am

I wouldn't be an advocate of just throwing a kid out of class. I would try to reason with the kid.



eikonabridge
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04 Nov 2019, 10:31 am

I recently sat into a child's IEP in middle school. What I see is, the quality of our special needs education goes downhills from kindergarten to high school. (My children are in mainstream classes, so I am not referring to their cases. I do hang around the autism community.) It gets worse and worse, and at the very end, schools are only providing "life skills" to special needs students. That basically means babysitting. By high school, teachers and parents have all given up hope on their children.

That is just so sad. A whole bunch of kids with the most powerful brains on the planet, driven to underdevelopment by their parents and by our school system.


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eikonabridge
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04 Nov 2019, 10:33 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't be an advocate of just throwing a kid out of class. I would try to reason with the kid.

Yep. We agree there.

The most basic point is: don't use punishment and rewards.

Unfortunately, most teachers are one-trick ponies. They only know about punishment and rewards. They have zero idea that there is an alternative: Fun and Facts.


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DW_a_mom
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04 Nov 2019, 5:07 pm

Juliette wrote:
Dear DW - you have always been one of my favourite people on here, wise beyond words! Hope you and your children are doing well? Have read some of how they're getting on, and you remain an inspiration.xx


Awe, thank you. I learned so much from everyone here, it helped a ton. Unfortunately day to day life requires actually reading your kids right, and while I did well with that with my ASD son, it turns out I missed quite a bit when it comes to my NT daughter. Still, she's on the right track now. I just wish I could have provided more support for her, been better able to understand what she needed from me faster.

My ASD son is doing super well. He graduated in June with a computer science degree. Very talented at what he does, but a little slow getting himself into a career job. He knows to mitigate his own stress and so didn't job hunt while in school, worried that it would be too much. Since he had gotten talked into a summer job way back in January, unrelated to his field, that delayed him another few months. Trying to hunt now is a bit off timing for rookie hires, but he will get there eventually. He always does. It only takes one company to see and appreciate his talent, just like it only took one university. With him we're used to the pattern of it looking hairy, but turning out nearly perfectly. And honestly, I'm in no hurry to have him leave us again, I love having him home, despite my worry that the longer it takes the more difficult it will be. He's got leadership skills and a girlfriend, so it isn't obvious to most people he's ASD. He is quite proud of his unique brain and doesn't try to hide it. He is thinking about eventually become a teacher, he has always loved sharing what he knows, but first he wants some real world industry experience, and a chance to save up money (it would be impossible to ever buy a house around here on a teacher's salary). His first love is and will always be tabletop game design, and he's been busy inventing and designing away, just not with selling any of it in mind.

Eikonabridge, we were lucky to have mostly great teachers willing to listen to our requests and suggestions throughout my son's education. At least one we're positive was ASD himself. But it is so true that not everyone gets that. It helped, I think, that our suggestions weren't difficult to implement and the teachers usually saw immediate benefits. We developed a lot of trust with the schools over the years. Even though there were many challenging conversations, they could see that long run we were trying to find the balance that would help our child without creating burdens on the system. Still, who knows what would have happened in a different time and a different place. As with everything, personality match is so very important, and there are no guarantees with any school that it will be the right fit for a child and family. I am happy you've had good relationships so far, too.


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DW_a_mom
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04 Nov 2019, 5:20 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
Thank you all for sharing your stories. If not for this kind of information, I would basically have no information (to practically work with).

My son hasn’t been diagnosed with autism, and I doubt he is on the spectrum. But he hasn’t done all their testing yet, so who knows. Autism IS a big part of our family because my son learns how to be a man from his dad, who is autistic. The ADHD behaviors have been harder for us, as they’re not as familiar.

Our son’s PCP is a much awarded pediatrician. He says our son is uncommon but normal. The children’s clinic says he needs medication and has ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and needs autism testing. The children’s center said they recommended we either switch schools and get an educational advocate, or homeschool for at least the rest of the Kindergarten year.

I’m filing the homeschooling paperwork tomorrow. I was actually a volunteer ESL teacher/tutor for several years, and my highest degree is a masters, so it’s all stuff I’m fairly familiar with.

I admit I am conflicted with the social skills. Academically, I agree, people should form those on their own. But it seems that my son’s worst trouble is in behaving honestly, not politely. People will forgive a child sh*tting his pants, but not telling a person to their face what they think. It holds adults to a higher standard of behavior than they are used to when dealing with children.

I’m going to have to pick and choose what I teach him about this. I do think social scripts will help him, but I like his innate morality and creative thoughts. I’m not going to try to “retrain” him.

Kraftie-he’s a grade above in math.

A side note-I found my own school records from K-2 in the basement. I noticed that there was no behavior grade until the second grade, which was 1984-1985. I also found that I had missed an amazing number of days (115 one year) and yet still got As and Bs. I think standards were a lot different then.


I am glad you are finding a path that feels right for your family.

While I never home schooled, I have friends who have, and there are many great opportunities with the home school community to help your child develop social skills. In many areas there are an assortment groups and shared classes to choose from. You should have more opportunity to observe the social interactions first hand and thus have the inside track to help your son with the skills he needs. Whether or not it turns out he is on the spectrum, your notes indicate MANY ASD type traits, so following protocols and assumptions for ASD children will probably be helpful.

Best of luck to you and your amazing child.


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SocOfAutism
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11 Nov 2019, 9:25 am

My son’s “behavioral issues” are refusing to do things he doesn’t agree with, and being sassy. It’s mostly personality. And I will not try to change that. I think he can be steered into behaving as expected when it’s important. He’s just not old enough yet.

I myself was “home schooled” so that’s why I really didn’t want to take this step. I was not taught at home and instead had to learn everything on my own until I got myself into college. I mean literally nothing. I had to pay an acquaintance kid to teach me how to divide so I could pass the GED at 15. But yes, I did pass it and now have several degrees. It was a hard road. I was so lonely and bored all the time. It’ll just be on me to make sure he gets what he needs and can reintegrate into school when he can learn to behave tactically.

One of the things I’m having to do, per my pediatrician, is take him to a counselor a few times so she can send the pediatrician her impressions. I went alone the first time and he is going with me this week. She seems to think his behavior is more important than his feelings. That he has to obey me and his dad without compromises or talking back. I don’t think that attitude will ever work with him. If someone disagrees with me and then gives me a valid reason, I will always respect that and give concessions.

At home, I’ve been giving him frequent breaks when we do schoolwork, and if he refuses to do something I change it to make it fun and then he will do it. For example, I am letting him build sentences with words he likes instead of forcing him to use a word bank. And I’m including mindfulness exercises and light social skills into the daily lessons. Such as breathing in a pattern, or passing around a talking totem to practice turn taking in conversation. I do think he’s doing a lot better already.



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11 Nov 2019, 5:58 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
My son’s “behavioral issues” are refusing to do things he doesn’t agree with, and being sassy. It’s mostly personality. And I will not try to change that. I think he can be steered into behaving as expected when it’s important. He’s just not old enough yet.

I myself was “home schooled” so that’s why I really didn’t want to take this step. I was not taught at home and instead had to learn everything on my own until I got myself into college. I mean literally nothing. I had to pay an acquaintance kid to teach me how to divide so I could pass the GED at 15. But yes, I did pass it and now have several degrees. It was a hard road. I was so lonely and bored all the time. It’ll just be on me to make sure he gets what he needs and can reintegrate into school when he can learn to behave tactically.

One of the things I’m having to do, per my pediatrician, is take him to a counselor a few times so she can send the pediatrician her impressions. I went alone the first time and he is going with me this week. She seems to think his behavior is more important than his feelings. That he has to obey me and his dad without compromises or talking back. I don’t think that attitude will ever work with him. If someone disagrees with me and then gives me a valid reason, I will always respect that and give concessions.

At home, I’ve been giving him frequent breaks when we do schoolwork, and if he refuses to do something I change it to make it fun and then he will do it. For example, I am letting him build sentences with words he likes instead of forcing him to use a word bank. And I’m including mindfulness exercises and light social skills into the daily lessons. Such as breathing in a pattern, or passing around a talking totem to practice turn taking in conversation. I do think he’s doing a lot better already.


I very much disagree with the bolded philosophy, especially if your child does get diagnosed as ASD. What I taught my kids was that they had one opportunity to make their case, so think carefully and give me a respectful and solid argument. If my position didn't change, I made it clear they were heard but now I expected them to listen (unless they had actually persuaded me otherwise; it did sometimes happen). They often actually got a few more tries than one, but I didn't allow endless back and forth. That worked really well for us: my kids can stand up for themselves and their ideas very effectively and succinctly in a variety of situations. In our community the adults seem to have a lot of respect for that. Teaching them how to be respectful and persuasive with it is a long and slow process, but I do believe that as independent souls children do deserve to be HEARD. Behavior may be key if you have to leave your child in the care of others all day, but even then I caveat-ed it all for my kids, telling them to listen in the moment and we could break it down later. You may need to find a different professional to work with if this one is that divergent on parenting philosophy.


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