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funeralxempire
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14 May 2019, 11:42 pm

Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
To use a British expression, we didn't invite the Nazis for tea and scones in WWII. Why should we do so now? f**k fascism.


Yes, f**k fascism.
Any autistic person who supports fascism supports discrimination against themselves.
I think I have made my position clear?

We are fortunate here in Australia, and apparently in the UK also.
We don't have the extreme social violence that is evident in Amerika.
And in no way am I going to support a misguided policy of violence for violence here in Australia.
A pox on both groups of fanatics on either side of the great divide.

Erm.
Have a nice day. :wink:


Be grateful violent far-right activists aren't a problem in Australia, if they were you'd be more likely to appreciate the solution.


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15 May 2019, 3:00 am

I don't support fascism but I don't agree with some of the self titled 'anti facist groups'. Sending threats is not ok, that is not a protest tactic, thats a terrorism tactic.

I don't agree with terrorism, I agree with protest...I don't agree with terrorism. At least not now, perhaps if things get to the point of a mad max type post apocalyptic situation I'd consider the idea of more violent tactics for survival..but antifa doesn't help things by acting like fascists themselves. I mean yeah go after unapologetic racists ruin their reputation or whatever....but its nonsense to dig around for anything and everything they can find on anyone. I mean when I was a teen I had a dumb nazi phase I was even talking to neo-nazis online(I am ashamed of myself but I was in a dark place so I wasn't really thinking clearly either). but I mean its like they could potentially dig that stuff up on me from when I was 17 and claim that I am a horrible nazi. So not sure their tactics are the right approach, since plenty of people get mixed up in bad thinking but people change and sometimes for the better.


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2019, 5:57 am

funeralxempire wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think the thing that bothered me most about them is that they were marching in early 2017 well in advance of any major white nationalist events and spent most of their time attacking people in places like Berkeley who were attending center-right events. It would be one thing if all of this started coming up as a reaction to Charlottesville but it seems like something closer to the opposite was happening.


Charlottesville wasn't the first time alt-right thugs instigated violence and needed confronted, it's just an especially large example. I'm not sure whether or not 'major' is even relevant, because they were still responding to violence from the far-right even when those events were smaller - why would it be relevant that they the started confronting them when their meetings/events/public actions were of a smaller scale?

Maybe rephrasing the question - do you have any instances, ie. news articles or anything else validating, where antifa was doing something other than attacking center-right figures before the beginning of 2017 in the US or where, in this relevant time range and before these attacks, that there was alt-right activity worthy of responding to, even in a confused manner (ie. attacking center-right), in this manner?

If I was only caring about 'large scale' your right - it would be a perverse point. I'm just asking, in the US, was there anything at all that justified this sort of behavior.


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15 May 2019, 6:07 am

This Atlantic article seems to suggest that the uptick of Antifa activity was due to nothing more or other than Donald Trump's election:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ft/534192/

If that's the case it doesn't look good for them.


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funeralxempire
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15 May 2019, 3:46 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think the thing that bothered me most about them is that they were marching in early 2017 well in advance of any major white nationalist events and spent most of their time attacking people in places like Berkeley who were attending center-right events. It would be one thing if all of this started coming up as a reaction to Charlottesville but it seems like something closer to the opposite was happening.


Charlottesville wasn't the first time alt-right thugs instigated violence and needed confronted, it's just an especially large example. I'm not sure whether or not 'major' is even relevant, because they were still responding to violence from the far-right even when those events were smaller - why would it be relevant that they the started confronting them when their meetings/events/public actions were of a smaller scale?

Maybe rephrasing the question - do you have any instances, ie. news articles or anything else validating, where antifa was doing something other than attacking center-right figures before the beginning of 2017 in the US or where, in this relevant time range and before these attacks, that there was alt-right activity worthy of responding to, even in a confused manner (ie. attacking center-right), in this manner?

If I was only caring about 'large scale' your right - it would be a perverse point. I'm just asking, in the US, was there anything at all that justified this sort of behavior.


I feel like you haven't bothered to even do a basic Google search for the terms 'black bloc' or 'antifa', because if you do that search with the filter option set to prior to 2016 (or earlier, depending on how far-back you'd like to go) you'll find stuff.

Since I have music to work on and am under no obligation to spoon-feed you, here's an example:

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/an ... on-6499167

If you'd like more, you'll have to do the research yourself.


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2019, 4:45 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I feel like you haven't bothered to even do a basic Google search for the terms 'black bloc' or 'antifa', because if you do that search with the filter option set to prior to 2016 (or earlier, depending on how far-back you'd like to go) you'll find stuff.

Since I have music to work on and am under no obligation to spoon-feed you, here's an example:

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/an ... on-6499167

If you'd like more, you'll have to do the research yourself.

Yeah, I think we're talking past each other and the assumptions of intent (or laziness) are a problem.

My question revolved more around this - out of all of the elements that have been in circulation since WWII and the quantity, what changed in 2017 that justified such a massive launch of activity and in particular going after center-right groups and speakers?

Don't worry about answering that question if you're sure I'm being disingenuous or right-partisan, I just wanted to clarify what I was getting at earlier. Skirmishing with actual neo-nazis and trying to shut down center-right speakers and events - completely different things.


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15 May 2019, 5:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
To use a British expression, we didn't invite the Nazis for tea and scones in WWII. Why should we do so now? f**k fascism.


Yes, f**k fascism.
Any autistic person who supports fascism supports discrimination against themselves.
I think I have made my position clear?

We are fortunate here in Australia, and apparently in the UK also.
We don't have the extreme social violence that is evident in Amerika.
And in no way am I going to support a misguided policy of violence for violence here in Australia.
A pox on both groups of fanatics on either side of the great divide.

Erm.
Have a nice day. :wink:


Be grateful violent far-right activists aren't a problem in Australia, if they were you'd be more likely to appreciate the solution.


Me personally?
No.
Thuggish/fascist behaviour is thuggish/fascist behaviour.
How ironic that socialists want to emulate fascist brutality. 8O

As I have mentioned many times:
I have a non-involvement of primitive indigenous societies policy.
So while I may disapprove, I won't be participating in whatever develops as a result of the knuckle-dragging thinking of those involved.

N.B.:
These threads are for education purposes, not least of all for me.
I expressly forbid anyone being influenced by my commentary.
Is that understood? <stern look> :mrgreen:

Quote:
Prime Directive: In the fictional universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", "General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet, prohibiting its members from interfering with the internal and natural development of alien civilizations.[1] The Prime Directive applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them.[2] Since its introduction in the first season of the original Star Trek series, it has served as the plot focus of numerous episodes of the various Star Trek series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive
:mrgreen:

The thuggish behaviour in pre-WWII Germany between the communists and the Nazis is hardly something to be considered inspirational.
It was a manifestation of some of the worst aspects of humanity.
An example of why I abdicated my citizenship of hoomanity and joined the Vulcan Confederation. 8)

It seems that hoomanity continues not to learn from history and is destined to repeat itself ad infinitum. :skull:

Pass out the luv and mung beans.
And let us sing:

"All we are saying, is give peace a chance."
The guy was a total hypocrite, but his music was good.


https://youtu.be/gn9upYqYsrw


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
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Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Pepe
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15 May 2019, 6:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Since I have music to work on and am under no obligation to spoon-feed you, here's an example:

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/an ... on-6499167

If you'd like more, you'll have to do the research yourself.


OUCH! 8O


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Pepe
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15 May 2019, 6:07 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I say f**k Fascism, too.

I'm not trying to take away your freedom of expression, Mr. Pepe. I'm not that presumptuous. It's not the way I roll.

I just don't like "Amerika"---that's all. I'm allowed to "express" that. That's "freedom of expression." If my best friend said that, I'd still be vociferous about my dislike of it. And I wouldn't care what he/she thought about it.

Maybe I should reflect upon what you said...maybe I was wrong to be so vociferous.


Looks like it may be appropriate for make-up sex. :heart:
I'll book the room.
You bring milk chocolate and flowers. :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


funeralxempire
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15 May 2019, 6:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I feel like you haven't bothered to even do a basic Google search for the terms 'black bloc' or 'antifa', because if you do that search with the filter option set to prior to 2016 (or earlier, depending on how far-back you'd like to go) you'll find stuff.

Since I have music to work on and am under no obligation to spoon-feed you, here's an example:

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/an ... on-6499167

If you'd like more, you'll have to do the research yourself.

Yeah, I think we're talking past each other and the assumptions of intent (or laziness) are a problem.

My question revolved more around this - out of all of the elements that have been in circulation since WWII and the quantity, what changed in 2017 that justified such a massive launch of activity and in particular going after center-right groups and speakers?

Don't worry about answering that question if you're sure I'm being disingenuous or right-partisan, I just wanted to clarify what I was getting at earlier. Skirmishing with actual neo-nazis and trying to shut down center-right speakers and events - completely different things.


From my observations I feel that the phenomenon of 'broadening the scope' of who disruptive activists target is likely largely restricted to campuses and the result of two main things; one being that Trump makes a good boogeyman for less informed people who start to get involved in activism who are both less interested in why radical groups (left and right) have historically often avoided violent conflict with more centrist groups even when they've happily used violence against each other as well as that they're less conscious of the idea that ideological divisions exist within their opponents just like they exist within their own side.

The second thing, since the media doesn't like to look hostile to victims it's likely that some people who insist they're center-right aren't really or even if they are, still are fair game for calling out for specific complaints like normalizing white nationalism. Combine this with white nationalist views becoming increasingly normalized within more establishment and centrist right wing circles, it's increasingly difficult to see where the boundaries between the radical right and alt-right (Tea Party, pseudo-libertarian 'paleo-libertarian and Paulbot types, paleo-conservatives, neo-confederates, white nationalists, etc) supposedly 'fringe' right, and the 'center-right' that normalizes and enables them.

Basically, in bubbles where 'punch a nazi' rhetoric starts to be taken too seriously, some of the people doing it, especially if they're ignorant and overly enthusiastic aren't looking too keenly for the differences between genuine 'reichwingers' and people who merely sympathize and cooperate with them. I'm never happy to see a cycle of violence escalate because people are terrified of what their opponents might do to them next, especially because historically violence hasn't been a friend to far-left causes in the long run. In the long run it often just enables the reactionary right to murder a lot of leftists with the state/state security apparatus either being a collaborator or at the very least complicit. And when it does 'go well' for them, it turns out just as ugly in the long run.


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Pepe
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15 May 2019, 7:25 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


By your reasoning:
Some hardline Muslims are terrorists, therefore all hardline Muslims are terrorists.

<change of tack>

There is an additional problem.
Some/many left-wing extremists also attack moderates who's opinions they don't like either.
This collateral damage is a major concern.
And who defines where the line is between alt. right philosophy and conservative thinking?

The problem with some far left extremists is that, like some of the alt. right, they are emotionalistic knuckledraggers who couldn't find 2 brain cells to rub together.
They are fed and ruled by their endorphins and dopamines.
In essence, they are simple organic drug junkies.

Do we really want to encourage troglodytes who can't distinguish between alt. right from moderate conservatives who are simply expressing their point of view?
Do we really want these quasi-humans to join the "conversation" without a leash? 8O

I thank you.
<steps off soap box> :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2019, 7:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Basically, in bubbles where 'punch a nazi' rhetoric starts to be taken too seriously, some of the people doing it, especially if they're ignorant and overly enthusiastic aren't looking too keenly for the differences between genuine 'reichwingers' and people who merely sympathize and cooperate with them. I'm never happy to see a cycle of violence escalate because people are terrified of what their opponents might do to them next, especially because historically violence hasn't been a friend to far-left causes in the long run. In the long run it often just enables the reactionary right to murder a lot of leftists with the state/state security apparatus either being a collaborator or at the very least complicit. And when it does 'go well' for them, it turns out just as ugly in the long run.

The thing I'd admit that I don't know is what kind of internal structure they have, and it's possible that - if they're anything like Occupy Wallstreet in their dislike of hierarchy - they're in a difficult position for any sort of gate keeping or internally condemning certain types of behavior (such as the sort of scope creep that would garner bad publicity). One of the things Bret Weinstein pointed out close to a year ago (think it was a Spiked TV panel) was that the left has a bad-actor problem and that both the good and bad actors will be in harmony on the slogans but have very different end goals. That said, considering the personality traits that make the left as such - especially openness - it's tough to think of a good way for screening out people who are there for different reasons or, as exists on the far-right as well, just there to LARP or find adventure, particularly when there aren't many horizontal models for that function.


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15 May 2019, 7:44 pm

Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


By your reasoning:
Some hardline Muslims are terrorists, therefore all hardline Muslims are terrorists.

<change of tack>

There is an additional problem.
Some/many left-wing extremists also attack moderates who's opinions they don't like either.
This collateral damage is a major concern.
And who defines where the line is between alt. right philosophy and conservative thinking?

The problem with some far left extremists is that, like some of the alt. right, they are emotionalistic knuckledraggers who couldn't find 2 brain cells to rub together.
They are fed and ruled by their endorphins and dopamines.
In essence, they are simple organic drug junkies.

Do we really want to encourage troglodytes who can't distinguish between alt. right from moderate conservatives who are simply expressing their point of view?
Do we really want these quasi-humans to join the "conversation" without a leash? 8O

I thank you.
<steps off soap box> :mrgreen:

There's nothing wrong with being a Muslim. There IS something wrong with being a Nazi or a white supremacist.


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funeralxempire
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15 May 2019, 8:40 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Basically, in bubbles where 'punch a nazi' rhetoric starts to be taken too seriously, some of the people doing it, especially if they're ignorant and overly enthusiastic aren't looking too keenly for the differences between genuine 'reichwingers' and people who merely sympathize and cooperate with them. I'm never happy to see a cycle of violence escalate because people are terrified of what their opponents might do to them next, especially because historically violence hasn't been a friend to far-left causes in the long run. In the long run it often just enables the reactionary right to murder a lot of leftists with the state/state security apparatus either being a collaborator or at the very least complicit. And when it does 'go well' for them, it turns out just as ugly in the long run.

The thing I'd admit that I don't know is what kind of internal structure they have, and it's possible that - if they're anything like Occupy Wallstreet in their dislike of hierarchy - they're in a difficult position for any sort of gate keeping or internally condemning certain types of behavior (such as the sort of scope creep that would garner bad publicity). One of the things Bret Weinstein pointed out close to a year ago (think it was a Spiked TV panel) was that the left has a bad-actor problem and that both the good and bad actors will be in harmony on the slogans but have very different end goals. That said, considering the personality traits that make the left as such - especially openness - it's tough to think of a good way for screening out people who are there for different reasons or, as exists on the far-right as well, just there to LARP or find adventure, particularly when there aren't many horizontal models for that function.


Two things to remember about both 'antifa' and 'black blocs': they're often largely organized ad hoc fashion (as you allude to, like Anonymous or OWS; they're more decentralized and typically less hierarchical than alt-right groups); they're often comprised of people who might disagree on a number of significant matters (progressives/social democrats, democratic socialists, Leninists/Trots/Maoists/authoritarian Marxists, anarchists, etc). Actually, this kinda resembles Anon raids too, where so long as people agreed on the target 'diversity of tactics' and 'ideological diversity' both were the rule of the day, at least in theory. Among the left this is specifically a lesson of the 90s where supposedly 'non-violent' protesters would sometimes attack black blocs who were also supporting the same cause, simply out of fear that they'd harm the protest/cause's image.


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16 May 2019, 11:38 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


Do you feel the same about Socialists? Muslims? Christians?