White privilege isn't real - Jordan Peterson

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dorkseid
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23 Feb 2021, 8:56 am

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The standards for mortgage acceptance might be much higher for blacks than for whites.

A black applicant might require a 800 FICO score, say. And a white applicant a 720.


Any reason for this?
Do blacks have less reliable income histories?

I would have thought, when it comes to the bank's profits, they would be colour blind.
What you say defies capitalism.
'Interesting'. 8)


A FICO score is the measure of someone's income history. Requiring a higher score from black individuals in discrimination based on their race.



kraftiekortie
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23 Feb 2021, 11:19 am

It’s a measure of someone’s payment history. Not much to do with income

A 700 or above score is preferable...but some people get mortgages with lower scores. Rarely if under 620, though.



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23 Feb 2021, 11:20 am

Is there a way to find out the difference between what the score has to be for a white person, compared a non-white, like are their any real estate people or bankers who have commented on this?



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23 Feb 2021, 11:28 am

One can’t have separate criteria on a racial basis stated in writing for required FICO scores and other aspects of a person’s profile. That should be obvious.

But, in practice, mortgage brokers stretch the rules.

Why do you think there are still “black neighborhoods”? It’s not because all blacks want to stick to their “own kind.”



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23 Feb 2021, 11:34 am

Oh yes, I didn't think it would be in writing but I was just wondering if anyone in the business has come forth to talk about about and reveal how the rules were stretched in their jobs, or how they were pressured by their superiors into stretching the rules themselves.



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23 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm



Whoever 'Controls The Story' For NoW, Has 'The REAL Privilege'

NoW; So, How Did the 'White Privilege Folks' Keep The African Slaves

Down; They Used A Book They Called A Bible to Justify Slavery

And Restricted Them From Learning to Read, So Their Story

Of Slavery Would Be the Only Story They Came to Know;

This is the Tribal Nature of Humans; Us Versus Them

In Competition to Secure Subsistence

Resources in Life; Now, Ironically

Humans Become More

The Tools They Create

To Make Life Easier; Yet,

Overall, Humans Are Even Failing

At Human Basic Privilege; The Colors of

Life That Make Life Worth Living; Yes, the Emotions

We Feel and Sense Moving, Connecting, Co-Creating

Life as Flowers in Gardens That Actually Aren't Just Frigging Machine

Parts to Keep

A Constructed

Culture Alive Enough to Survive...

So, No Matter What 'Your Label' iS; How

Do You Gain 'Real Privilege' Among Tribal

Group Think Oriented Humans By Colors of

Politics, Religion, Philosophy Same; You

No Longer Take Anything They Wanna

Gain; You Become Enough

Complete

And In

Giving To Them Instead; Wow,

'You' Might Become A "LeBron

James" Yet You See, Even Now

That 'Master' Hasn't Figured

'The Game' Out Yet to Play;

To Truly Play Basketball

For Free; So How

Do You Do

That Yes Now

"Complete Privilege'

The Real Game You Win

And Never Even Have to Win Again

As The Score Is Yours to Control Within...

Really, All that's Left After that to Do is Give With

No Expect or Need for Return...

This iS How

Folks Really

Make Their

Comeback And Stay...

And Yes of Course Socio-Economic

Roadblocks Are Still A Similar Road Block For Real Success;

For It's True; There are Human Minimums, For Avenues, for True Success to BREaTHE Free;

Is LeBron James A Greater Player Than Michael Jordan; Whoever Is Playing Still For Free Actually Is Now...

Other than that

For Some Folks

Watching LeBron

James Play is Really

As Heaven AS Heaven Gets for them;

Yeah, i Used to BE A Tool of the FSU Football

Team Story, Like that 'Tool'; Others Are Church Tools;

Others Are Political Tools, And Others Skip All the Other

Stories

And Write

Their Own

Story Free;

Direct, Produce,

And Create Reality;

As Close to Free Will

As It Gets Mastering the

Feelings and Senses Within For Free...

That Way in Most Circumstances, No
One Else Has Any 'Tool' To 'Beat You', For

'Real Human

Privilege'

Greatest

Now

Free Will

As Free As Will Gets....

And if You Say i Ain't Got

None; Whoever You Are; You

Don't Live in my UniVerse

Within And i Don't Live

In Yours Either;

Will Varies;

No

Different Than 'View'...

"Relative Free Will Privilege"...

Truly A 'GReaTesT Privilege' We Only 'Gain'...

Does it Come With 'Dumb Luck', Well, Hell, Yes

And Heaven too; i don't 'Know' Anything When i Do it...

If 'You' Can Figure That Out Now For Real, You (me at least)

Can/WiLL Understand

What Free Will Really
Is Relatively Speaking With All in All Now...

Meh, For A Common Reference Point, Tao; God Yes,
What Faith Really Means Without Eyes on 'Face Value Labels'



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23 Feb 2021, 1:26 pm

cyberdad wrote:
What I was referring to was government policy in Brasil, Chile and Argentina to remove black/indigenous people from their census and encourage migration from Europe to "civilise" their countries. For example German migrants in Brasil were given land free which had previously been appropriated from indigenous people. That's almost definitely white privilege in my books. Australia was occupied in the same way after indigenous people were wiped out.

Oh, yeah, that did happen. I thought you were referring to ongoing issues (like the housing thing in the US) and not just legacy of past issues.

I don't think that's a big issue today though. It's not like "black people are being kept from owning land". It's very much a matter of money (and greasing the hands of the right people). And I think, even back in the immigration days, that wasn't the issue either. Most immigrants were actually replacing former slaves, not former slave owners. And the South had never really been colonized by that point. I've read reports about ancestors of mine where it said they moved to São Paulo from the South because of frequent attacks by natives.

Today the fact is not many people want to live in the countryside. Brazil is one of the most urbanized countries today (and apparently still going at a 1% urbanization rate a year). So the legacy of those historical things isn't so much that people want land but can't have it (those people exist, but I don't think it's a legacy of that). The legacy is favelas. People don't want to leave the city, they want more job opportunities and better-paying jobs.

I think another thing that may be a point of confusion for people abroad is that racism in Brazil really doesn't work the same way as in the US or in Apartheid South Africa (or at least it didn't until very recently...). As far as I know, the mixing of races was actually an expected (and probably intended) result of white immigration. As a rule, if you look white enough and act white enough (or have enough money), you're white. Actual ancestry doesn't matter much when it comes to that perception. And to some extent that was surprisingly the case even back in the days of slavery (case in point: Machado de Assis). I was taught in school that "the Brazilian people emerged from the confluence of the three main races". That's the prevailing narrative, and as far as I know it comes from the days of the First Republic (late 19th century, when they wanted to forge a unified national identity).

Briefly put, the prevailing (unspoken) ideology is that of dominance through assimilation rather than segregation. That process has actually reached its conclusion with indigenous peoples. Indigenous genetic heritage is significant in the general population, but, outside of isolated pockets typically far away from any urban area, "indigenous" just isn't an identifiable ethnicity anymore. I'm sure there must be some people out there who do identify as indigenous and could be recognized as such, but I don't think I've ever met any. I think the same process has been underway with black people in the country for a long time. According to Wikipedia, there were already as many mixed-race people as there were white people in the country when slavery was outlawed, and that's still the case, except that there's a significantly smaller proportion of "simply black" people today.


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kraftiekortie
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23 Feb 2021, 1:46 pm

I know Northeast Brazil, around Salvador and Recife, have a higher proportion of people who are of primarily African descent than what occurs in places like Rio and Sao Paulo.



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23 Feb 2021, 2:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I know Northeast Brazil, around Salvador and Recife, have a higher proportion of people who are of primarily African descent than what occurs in places like Rio and Sao Paulo.

Yes. That's a reflection of the fact that different parts of the country were colonized/settled separately, at different times, in different ways and with different economic and political drivers. It was really not a given that Brazil would be a single country.

Some of those areas in the Northeast have developed a more distinctly "African-flavored" culture. I can't speak for the people who live there, but the general understanding of it seems to be that "it's the culture of the place", not "the culture of black people there, who just happen to be more numerous". I think the people there do share this view too and sometimes are even "proud of it" even if they're white. Like, even if the white population may not see themselves as a direct part of it, they'll still see it as "the culture of the place". Like a well-known "typical dish" from your area that you just happen not to eat regularly. I think a significant part of why it works that way (or why it's at least advertised like it works that way) is because of tourism, including from other parts of the country. Like a "friendly, captivating and somewhat exotic" image type of thing.


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23 Feb 2021, 2:41 pm

Is Belo Horizonte colder than Porto Alegre, even though Porto Alegre is south of Belo Horizonte?

Race is a complex issue everywhere!

If one reads William Faulkner, one gets the essence of racism in the South. It's much more than mere "prejudice." It was frankly a pathological feature of some southern whites in the past.

I am certainly NOT saying that all, or perhaps even most, southerners were racists either now or then.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 23 Feb 2021, 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Feb 2021, 2:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Is Belo Horizonte colder than Porto Alegre, even though Porto Alegre is south of Belo Horizonte?


Well I've noticed a lot of twists and turns in this thread but this takes the biscuit.


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23 Feb 2021, 3:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Is Belo Horizonte colder than Porto Alegre, even though Porto Alegre is south of Belo Horizonte?

No, Porto Alegre is colder. For some reason though, Curitiba is the coldest state capital, even though it's only the third southernmost one. I think it's the only state capital where you can see snow (if you wait a few years and keep an eye on the forecast so you don't miss it...).

There's a colder area than Curitiba further north (actually a bit further north than where I live), but no snow ever, unfortunately. :(

babybird wrote:
Well I've noticed a lot of twists and turns in this thread but this takes the biscuit.

:lol:


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23 Feb 2021, 3:38 pm

toadsnail wrote:
It's not like "black people are being kept from owning land". It's very much a matter of money (and greasing the hands of the right people).

The best lands for agriculture were given to whites.If you look at lands currently Black people with money now are at a disadvantage and have to play catchup.

toadsnail wrote:
I think another thing that may be a point of confusion for people abroad is that racism in Brazil really doesn't work the same way as in the US or in Apartheid South Africa (or at least it didn't until very recently...). As far as I know, the mixing of races was actually an expected (and probably intended) result of white immigration. As a rule, if you look white enough and act white enough (or have enough money), you're white. Actual ancestry doesn't matter much when it comes to that perception..


Yes I understand that in all middle/southern American countries that racial purity was not taken as seriously as in North America. That doesn't mean the people who are the elite/rulers in said countries don't know their racial pedigree and family trees. For wealthy people (even in Cuba) its not rocket science to know who is "Mulatto", South America is now one of the biggest clients for ancestry.com and DNA kit testing as many upper class families want to keep their bloodlines "clean".

You mention south Africa, even though whites make up like 2% of the population they still own 70% of the land. I think you will find similar disproportionate land ownership data in South America. 400 years of white colonial rule mean't land was always in the hands of Spanish or Portuguese and post-independence the ruling class ensured only European migration to prevent the demographic dominance of indigenous, mezisto and black people.

While north America is a mosaic with racial separation of whites, south America is a trifle with many layers but the lightest layers are still on top. Land ownership was always crucial to wealth in both north and south America.



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23 Feb 2021, 4:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The best lands for agriculture were given to whites.If you look at lands currently Black people with money now are at a disadvantage and have to play catchup.

That's a matter of representation. Why should representation even matter in that case? I don't think anyone should aspire to be a corporate agribusiness supervillain.

Quote:
Yes I understand that in all middle/southern American countries that racial purity was not taken as seriously as in North America. That doesn't mean the people who are the elite/rulers in said countries don't know their racial pedigree and family trees. For wealthy people (even in Cuba) its not rocket science to know who is "Mulatto", South America is now one of the biggest clients for ancestry.com and DNA kit testing as many upper class families want to keep their bloodlines "clean".

You're either jumping to conclusions or taking the wrong sources at face value. I myself know a lot about my family tree, but that's for a simple reason (and the same one as for millions of other people): I realized I could get an Italian passport, and I wanted it. You need to do genealogy research to find the necessary documents.

There is, unfortunately, a growing number of openly racist people as a matter of ideology, but that's a very recent trend (tied in part to the emergence of Trumpism), and those people are far from being the norm.

Quote:
You mention south Africa, even though whites make up like 2% of the population they still own 70% of the land. I think you will find similar disproportionate land ownership data in South America. 400 years of white colonial rule mean't land was always in the hands of Spanish or Portuguese and post-independence the ruling class ensured only European migration to prevent the demographic dominance of indigenous, mezisto and black people.

You're still looking at our race relations from an American-like perspective, like a zero-sum game.

There's a growing trend today of people wanting the existence of racism here to be properly acknowledged. That's a totally valid concern. But wanting everything to be forced to be evenly split between demographics for no reason other than simply evenly splitting it between demographics is just batshit crazy. History should be understood in the context of history. "How things got to be the way they are" should be understood as a means to better decide "where do we go from here". But "where do we go from here" is the whole point. Quality of life for all today is the whole point. Blame games for what dead people did are fittingly a dead end.

Quote:
While north America is a mosaic with racial separation of whites, south America is a trifle with many layers but the lightest layers are still on top. Land ownership was always crucial to wealth in both north and south America.

That's still a past issue anyway. I've said it already: the legacy is favelas. They're real, they're a problem. Money from current farmland ownership is locked away from black people, sure, but it's locked away from nearly all white people too. I honestly don't care what color the highest elite is, they're a bunch of parasites either way. They suck everyone's blood equally. And from all I can tell, this sentiment is equally shared between races.


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23 Feb 2021, 6:02 pm

toadsnail wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The best lands for agriculture were given to whites.If you look at lands currently Black people with money now are at a disadvantage and have to play catchup.

That's a matter of representation. Why should representation even matter in that case? I don't think anyone should aspire to be a corporate agribusiness supervillain.

Quote:
Yes I understand that in all middle/southern American countries that racial purity was not taken as seriously as in North America. That doesn't mean the people who are the elite/rulers in said countries don't know their racial pedigree and family trees. For wealthy people (even in Cuba) its not rocket science to know who is "Mulatto", South America is now one of the biggest clients for ancestry.com and DNA kit testing as many upper class families want to keep their bloodlines "clean".

You're either jumping to conclusions or taking the wrong sources at face value. I myself know a lot about my family tree, but that's for a simple reason (and the same one as for millions of other people): I realized I could get an Italian passport, and I wanted it. You need to do genealogy research to find the necessary documents.

There is, unfortunately, a growing number of openly racist people as a matter of ideology, but that's a very recent trend (tied in part to the emergence of Trumpism), and those people are far from being the norm.

Quote:
You mention south Africa, even though whites make up like 2% of the population they still own 70% of the land. I think you will find similar disproportionate land ownership data in South America. 400 years of white colonial rule mean't land was always in the hands of Spanish or Portuguese and post-independence the ruling class ensured only European migration to prevent the demographic dominance of indigenous, mezisto and black people.

You're still looking at our race relations from an American-like perspective, like a zero-sum game.

There's a growing trend today of people wanting the existence of racism here to be properly acknowledged. That's a totally valid concern. But wanting everything to be forced to be evenly split between demographics for no reason other than simply evenly splitting it between demographics is just batshit crazy. History should be understood in the context of history. "How things got to be the way they are" should be understood as a means to better decide "where do we go from here". But "where do we go from here" is the whole point. Quality of life for all today is the whole point. Blame games for what dead people did are fittingly a dead end.

Quote:
While north America is a mosaic with racial separation of whites, south America is a trifle with many layers but the lightest layers are still on top. Land ownership was always crucial to wealth in both north and south America.

That's still a past issue anyway. I've said it already: the legacy is favelas. They're real, they're a problem. Money from current farmland ownership is locked away from black people, sure, but it's locked away from nearly all white people too. I honestly don't care what color the highest elite is, they're a bunch of parasites either way. They suck everyone's blood equally. And from all I can tell, this sentiment is equally shared between races.


I think your points are reasonable and yes I'm not an expert or have knowledge on the ground in the current situation in Latin America.

However, the perspective I am alluding to is is perceived by those on the bottom who are predominantly non-white even if it's invisible or not important to you. This is a mistake (whether intentionally or otherwise) that most white folk make. It's projecting their own views on others as to the status quo.



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23 Feb 2021, 6:18 pm

cyberdad wrote:
However, the perspective I am alluding to is is perceived by those on the bottom who are predominantly non-white even if it's invisible or not important to you. This is a mistake (whether intentionally or otherwise) that most white folk make. It's projecting their own views on others as to the status quo.

And I'll argue here that you're the one projecting. Do you think I don't know that black people (like anyone else) notice the top-to-bottom color gradient? Of course they do. It's more than obvious. But so what? "Rich people are usually white". Rain is wet. What else is new. It's not like people can go from slavery to wealth like magic. Why would you assume I think anyone doesn't see that?


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