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cyberdad
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21 Jun 2021, 4:51 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. What about the new movie Charlies Angel's for example? I hated it because I felt it was too much about 'woke' politics, but was the original 70s show and earlier movies in the early 2000s also political for their times, but I just didn't see it?


Both were equally crap,



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 4:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

In 1960s America you weren't likely to see a movie showing how brave socialist trade unionists successfully resisted their bosses demands and raised the standard of living for everyone at the coal mine but you saw lots of anti-Soviet rhetoric woven into movies because that was a theme that resonated with audiences. Not everyone in the audience but enough it was seen as a positive and worthwhile thing to include..


God I remember all the Soviet movies in the 1980s :eew:


You mean you didn't spend your whole life hoping for the day you'd get to become a Wolverine?
I swear, the militia movement is mostly guys who are cosplaying/LARPing at being war heroes.


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cyberdad
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21 Jun 2021, 4:57 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

In 1960s America you weren't likely to see a movie showing how brave socialist trade unionists successfully resisted their bosses demands and raised the standard of living for everyone at the coal mine but you saw lots of anti-Soviet rhetoric woven into movies because that was a theme that resonated with audiences. Not everyone in the audience but enough it was seen as a positive and worthwhile thing to include..


God I remember all the Soviet movies in the 1980s :eew:


You mean you didn't spend your whole life hoping for the day you'd get to become a Wolverine?
I swear, the militia movement is mostly guys who are cosplaying/LARPing at being war heroes.


Actually even here in the antipodes there was the perpetual fear of a nuclear war or communism....Hollywood loved stoking fear with the bad Russians....



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 5:09 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

In 1960s America you weren't likely to see a movie showing how brave socialist trade unionists successfully resisted their bosses demands and raised the standard of living for everyone at the coal mine but you saw lots of anti-Soviet rhetoric woven into movies because that was a theme that resonated with audiences. Not everyone in the audience but enough it was seen as a positive and worthwhile thing to include..


God I remember all the Soviet movies in the 1980s :eew:


You mean you didn't spend your whole life hoping for the day you'd get to become a Wolverine?
I swear, the militia movement is mostly guys who are cosplaying/LARPing at being war heroes.


Actually even here in the antipodes there was the perpetual fear of a nuclear war or communism....Hollywood loved stoking fear with the bad Russians....


So you'd be Thylacines? :nerdy:


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cyberdad
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21 Jun 2021, 6:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

In 1960s America you weren't likely to see a movie showing how brave socialist trade unionists successfully resisted their bosses demands and raised the standard of living for everyone at the coal mine but you saw lots of anti-Soviet rhetoric woven into movies because that was a theme that resonated with audiences. Not everyone in the audience but enough it was seen as a positive and worthwhile thing to include..


God I remember all the Soviet movies in the 1980s :eew:


You mean you didn't spend your whole life hoping for the day you'd get to become a Wolverine?
I swear, the militia movement is mostly guys who are cosplaying/LARPing at being war heroes.


Actually even here in the antipodes there was the perpetual fear of a nuclear war or communism....Hollywood loved stoking fear with the bad Russians....


So you'd be Thylacines? :nerdy:


More like dodos :lol:



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21 Jun 2021, 8:25 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:

What the hell is an "escapist space?"

And if you think movies, TV, comic books, and video games have been devoid of politics up until the last five years or so, you've deliberately buried your head in the sand. The only difference is that the "politics" being featured were more palatable to a white cishet audience.

And it's worth noting that just because a piece features a character who is not white cishet, it doesn't make it inherently "political," nor does the focus being on a white cishet character make something not "political." Frankly, I find much of this thread whiney and looking for reasons to be offended.


An "escapist space" is where medeocre cishetmales go to fantasize about being extraordinary cishetmales.

The idea that comics have ever NOT been political is hilarious. The whole premise of X-Men is accepting people who are different, and the consequences of fear. Spiderman's origin story is about the consequences of actions, and the sudden need to grow up into a much bigger world than you were ready for. Captain america literally fought, and fights, nazis. Batman was about using one's own privilege to help prevent the same thing that happened to him from happening to others, without expecting anything in return. Tony Stark stopped making weapons at the expense of his own wealth and power. Comics have always been political. It was just more convenient when the politics happened to align with yours.

Now that the politics are changing with the times, and no longer align with the old beliefs, the old guard feel like something is being "taken" from them, as though the comics belonged to them personally, and not the people who create them. "That's not MY superhero!" That was never YOUR superhero, skippy. These characters are not YOURS. They never were.

It's the same nonsense as when people whine about "politicizing" startrek, missing the point that trek has ALWAYS been political, all the way back to it's roots, when the network refused to hire Nichelle Nichols as a regular cast member, so Gene Roddenberry hired her as a permanent guest star instead (which made her more money than if she had ben hired as a regular cast member), and despite the network's insistence she only say things like "incoming hail" or "right away captain", Gene consistently gave her major lines, important roles, portrayed her as strong and competent, and gave her a segment to let her sing. Every series of trek has pushed the limits of social expectations.

Grumbling about "woke culture" seems to be little more than being offended that their beliefs are falling out of fashion.


But even though the characters are not ours, new writers will rewrite the characters, outside the approval of the original creators, so aren't the characters those of the original creators in a sense, and not be messed with or changed, that way, in a sense?

As for Star Trek, and politics, I never thought of Nichelle Nichols as making the story political. Gene Roddenberry preferred a certain actress so he kept casting her, why do we have to read that as political to the story?



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 8:34 pm

ironpony wrote:
As for Star Trek, and politics, I never thought of Nichelle Nichols as making the story political. Gene Roddenberry preferred a certain actress so he kept casting her, why do we have to read that as political to the story?


Because it was both seen and intended as political in the context of the era.


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21 Jun 2021, 8:39 pm

But I thought we were talking about politics in the storytelling though? What does casting her have to with the plot being affected by it?



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21 Jun 2021, 9:32 pm

ironpony wrote:
But I thought we were talking about politics in the storytelling though? What does casting her have to with the plot being affected by it?


You are placing politics in the middle of the entertainment. Most people are focused on the story.

If its a relatable narrative then nobody cares there is a lesson. If you watch the movie and are easily triggered by something woke then you are i) hypervigilant looking for evidence of wokeness and ii) it confirms your existing bias that this movie is no good because it had some message you don't like.

Kids watch sesame street and there's plenty of life lessons thrown in. But kids still enjoy the music, songs, dances and colorful/fun characters. Children haven't learned prejudice yet to criticise cartoons or kids programs for being woke.



ironpony
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21 Jun 2021, 9:34 pm

Oh okay, when we were talking about woke movies, I thought it was having do with story, plot and thematic elements, not who is cast in terms of race only necessarily.



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22 Jun 2021, 12:39 am

ironpony wrote:
But I think anyone would react to changes being made to a story, just because new producers felt like they needed to change with the times though, wouldn't they? Why not stick to the old politics of the story and keep fans happy, rather than new politics?

Money. I assume their marketing research departments have concluded “Don’t go woke, go broke”.


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22 Jun 2021, 12:50 am

Well if a lot of fans complain that doesn't seem like a good sign...



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22 Jun 2021, 1:03 am

cyberdad wrote:
If its a relatable narrative then nobody cares there is a lesson. If you watch the movie and are easily triggered by something woke then you are i) hypervigilant looking for evidence of wokeness and ii) it confirms your existing bias that this movie is no good because it had some message you don't like.

Kids watch sesame street and there's plenty of life lessons thrown in. But kids still enjoy the music, songs, dances and colorful/fun characters. Children haven't learned prejudice yet to criticise cartoons or kids programs for being woke.

You are onto something with hyper vigilance. It is not just hyper vigilance about woke, or even politics. It is not just fans, but reviewers, and those involved in making entertainment. There have always advocacy movies and controversial movies. All art of any kind is making some sort of statement about something. Accept for when the movie was specifically about advocacy most people missed the message, or did not define the movie by its message. It was the acting, the story, the special effects that defined most movies. That is a lot less true today. That is in part design, woke wants you to be reminded America is inherently racist as much as possible, but a lot has to do with how technology makes it easier to be hyper vigilant.


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22 Jun 2021, 1:21 am

ironpony wrote:
Well if a lot of fans complain that doesn't seem like a good sign...

Complainers get the headlines, but how many of them are going to boycott the movie, boycott anything made by the studio, the advertisers. Even if they-do boycott it for how many will do it for an amount of time that will seriously hurt the bottom line?

There is an old saying “bad publicity is better than no publicity”. Usually more people will see the movie to see what the controversy is all about, or to find reasons to hate the movie then will boycott it.

Dr. Seuss is the latest example sales of the non discontinued books increased.


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22 Jun 2021, 1:29 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If its a relatable narrative then nobody cares there is a lesson. If you watch the movie and are easily triggered by something woke then you are i) hypervigilant looking for evidence of wokeness and ii) it confirms your existing bias that this movie is no good because it had some message you don't like.

Kids watch sesame street and there's plenty of life lessons thrown in. But kids still enjoy the music, songs, dances and colorful/fun characters. Children haven't learned prejudice yet to criticise cartoons or kids programs for being woke.

You are onto something with hyper vigilance. It is not just hyper vigilance about woke, or even politics. It is not just fans, but reviewers, and those involved in making entertainment. There have always advocacy movies and controversial movies. All art of any kind is making some sort of statement about something. Accept for when the movie was specifically about advocacy most people missed the message, or did not define the movie by its message. It was the acting, the story, the special effects that defined most movies. That is a lot less true today. That is in part design, woke wants you to be reminded America is inherently racist as much as possible, but a lot has to do with how technology makes it easier to be hyper vigilant.


Yes you are right. People will read online reviews before passing judgement on a movie. Even I admit to to reading brief reviews (avoiding spoilers) prior to watching a movie and then after watching dive straight into the detailed reviews.

For certain genres like horror and science fiction the most popular reviewers are fans. Classic example is Star Wars, There's like a handful of superfans who people look to provide insights and background (again I admit I am partial to watching their podcasts/reviews). This group have been leading much of the vocal dissent to cancel Disney over the Star wars trilogy and lately with Gina Carano's sacking.



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22 Jun 2021, 1:46 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. What about the new movie Charlies Angel's for example? I hated it because I felt it was too much about 'woke' politics, but was the original 70s show and earlier movies in the early 2000s also political for their times, but I just didn't see it?

The original television show in the 70s was a prime example of a genre called “T&A” shorthand for tits and ass. The story lines as such were only there to fill in the time. The purpose of the show was for guys to stare at the Angles. Posters of the stars especially Farrah Fawcett were on many a teenage boys bedroom walls. So the message was women are basically their bodies. Feminists complained but they were background noise, if that.


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