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Bradleigh
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24 Jun 2021, 11:40 pm

The standards can be different because the sexes can be sexualised in different ways, and with a different history, such as the history of the male gaze. Preferably both sexes and the genders would be sexualised in the same way, or in ways that does not disproportionally make one more of an object than others.

A show like Sex and the City had elements like biphobia, so I am not just going to say that a lot of particular shows or movies are fantastic. But you will see less complaints about say a movie that might show a man shown more as a sexual object just like with a woman as being sexually empowered (in charge), because they break a mold of the more pervasive ideas that creates problems. That being that a woman's sexuality is in service to men, while men can be in service to themselves. A sexually dominating woman can often portrayed as abnormal and villainous, or in other terms comedy in ways that can play down other forms of sexual assault.

Following the progressive point of view, you can have sexuality for all genders, just have it fair and inclusive without feeding into harmful trends. But as it also stands a lot of these movies are often more afraid of this equal sexualisation, with apparently rating boards are more likely to give a higher restriction to women receiving oral than a man receiving it, and to continue with that men implied to be "receiving it" is much rarer and risqué than women. Genderbending something like a James Bond character, who could have a number of sexual conquests of men, is something that would have hard to accept. And lesbians are there to titillate, gay men are a joke, both for the purpose of a male audience, and the already existing double standard.


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ironpony
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24 Jun 2021, 11:48 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
The standards can be different because the sexes can be sexualised in different ways, and with a different history, such as the history of the male gaze. Preferably both sexes and the genders would be sexualised in the same way, or in ways that does not disproportionally make one more of an object than others.

A show like Sex and the City had elements like biphobia, so I am not just going to say that a lot of particular shows or movies are fantastic. But you will see less complaints about say a movie that might show a man shown more as a sexual object just like with a woman as being sexually empowered (in charge), because they break a mold of the more pervasive ideas that creates problems. That being that a woman's sexuality is in service to men, while men can be in service to themselves. A sexually dominating woman can often portrayed as abnormal and villainous, or in other terms comedy in ways that can play down other forms of sexual assault.

Following the progressive point of view, you can have sexuality for all genders, just have it fair and inclusive without feeding into harmful trends. But as it also stands a lot of these movies are often more afraid of this equal sexualisation, with apparently rating boards are more likely to give a higher restriction to women receiving oral than a man receiving it, and to continue with that men implied to be "receiving it" is much rarer and risqué than women. Genderbending something like a James Bond character, who could have a number of sexual conquests of men, is something that would have hard to accept. And lesbians are there to titillate, gay men are a joke, both for the purpose of a male audience, and the already existing double standard.


Those are good points. I do enjoy watching James Bond, but if someone wanted to make a movie series about a female spy who had multiple sexual conquests of men, I wouldn't have any problem with that either, but would that be more frowned upon to watch for others, compared to a male character like Bond doing it?

When you say the history of the male gaze, don't female characters gaze too though?



Bradleigh
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25 Jun 2021, 12:37 am

ironpony wrote:
Those are good points. I do enjoy watching James Bond, but if someone wanted to make a movie series about a female spy who had multiple sexual conquests of men, I wouldn't have any problem with that either, but would that be more frowned upon to watch for others, compared to a male character like Bond doing it?

When you say the history of the male gaze, don't female characters gaze too though?


The female gaze can exist, but it much rarer and is considered not the norm. It is kind of a complex discussion involving framing techniques, often that female characters are more likely to be portrayed as a sexual object as per the male gaze. The gaze is more about an assumption of what the camera sees, Like Megan Fox working on a car in Transformers, the reverse is kind of rare and not treated the same.


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cyberdad
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25 Jun 2021, 12:39 am

ironpony wrote:
I didn't think that Scully was sexualized just because other character wanted her. I thought that other characters wanteed her in spite of her character not being sexualized, unless I am wrong?


Her character development is complex was that she was suppressing her feminine charms for the sake of her career, but as the series moved on she became more self-confident with men and a little care-free.



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25 Jun 2021, 12:42 am

Supressing her feminine charms? People talk about women expressing feminine charms like it's such a chore for them to do, like it's a bad thing though.

So how is it hard to supress therefore, unless people do not go into certaind detail there?



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25 Jun 2021, 12:56 am

Bradleigh wrote:
female characters are more likely to be portrayed as a sexual object as per the male gaze. The gaze is more about an assumption of what the camera sees, Like Megan Fox working on a car in Transformers, the reverse is kind of rare and not treated the same.


I'm fairly sure I can read the mind of what the average straight male would be thinking when watching Megan Fox bending over working on a car in Transformers.

If Brad Pitt was bending over a car in the same manner it wouldn't elicit the same reaction from female viewers.



ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 1:10 am

cyberdad wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
female characters are more likely to be portrayed as a sexual object as per the male gaze. The gaze is more about an assumption of what the camera sees, Like Megan Fox working on a car in Transformers, the reverse is kind of rare and not treated the same.


I'm fairly sure I can read the mind of what the average straight male would be thinking when watching Megan Fox bending over working on a car in Transformers.

If Brad Pitt was bending over a car in the same manner it wouldn't elicit the same reaction from female viewers.


Well I feel like that's okay in certain types of movies, and if a movie is paying sexual fan service to female viewers with male characters isn't that okay too? For example, back when Game of Thrones was on, my female friends were hot for Jason Momoa, and he was a sexualized character who didn't have a shirt on for a lot of the time.

So why doesn't that seem to bother people if the Megan Fox thing does? I just feel that we have just become so prudish, instead of being secure, with being sexually entertained, and think it's okay, and be more open to it. Why can't male audiences enjoy their sexualized character fan service, and female audiences enjoy their males ones, and everyone's happy? Why can't society just be more equal opportunity on the issue, and no one has to feel insecure about it?



traven
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25 Jun 2021, 2:32 am

ohohohoh, that's where you're wrong quote

most sexy is a man working
isn't that best,
how sexy is a man behind a desk?
8O oh that might be great for the wallet-thinkers
or are all wallet-thinkers now,
such a socialist and matriachist doctrine

in this brave new world where the repair men refuse to repair
but question your mind instead
being an oppressor is the sole new fashion,
just say you had to do it
for the greater good of goods


every one can be a little oppressor now, it doesn't take any schooling at all, nor will


ofc the bicycle repairman was m-holed
nxt best






cyberdad
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25 Jun 2021, 3:29 am

ironpony wrote:
For example, back when Game of Thrones was on, my female friends were hot for Jason Momoa, and he was a sexualized character who didn't have a shirt on for a lot of the time.

So why doesn't that seem to bother people if the Megan Fox thing does? I just feel that we have just become so prudish, instead of being secure, with being sexually entertained, and think it's okay, and be more open to it.


So you probably know that people don't normally discuss sexualising an actor on social media except when talking to close friends or posting anonymously.

Jason Mamoa is a well known sex symbol but I'm guessing if he turned up at their house they would call the police on him



ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 9:06 am

Oh yes I know people would call the cops if he showed up at their house, what does that have to do with anything though? I just meant I thought that if men can be sex symbols in the movies, then why can't women without us having to treat them as 'precious', or 'innocent', compared to men getting a pass.



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25 Jun 2021, 10:17 am

cyberdad wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but it is probably more implicit than overt.

As I've already stated several times, the preferences and POV of white cishet men is baked into our culture to the point that it's taken for granted that it's "normal," and anything that doesn't appeal to white cishet males is "abnormal."


Was Gillian Anderson's role as Dr Dana Scully also sexualised? I always thought her little outfits, pouting and expressions were quite hot


Nope.

Funny story, but, when casting for TXF, the show's creator was under pressure from the network to hire a Pamela Anderson clone.

He refused, and we got Gillian Anderson.


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 8:07 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Those are good points. I do enjoy watching James Bond, but if someone wanted to make a movie series about a female spy who had multiple sexual conquests of men, I wouldn't have any problem with that either, but would that be more frowned upon to watch for others, compared to a male character like Bond doing it?

When you say the history of the male gaze, don't female characters gaze too though?


The female gaze can exist, but it much rarer and is considered not the norm. It is kind of a complex discussion involving framing techniques, often that female characters are more likely to be portrayed as a sexual object as per the male gaze. The gaze is more about an assumption of what the camera sees, Like Megan Fox working on a car in Transformers, the reverse is kind of rare and not treated the same.


Oh okay, but how is it not treated the same though? Here's a couple of movie clips with female character gazing at a male character they find attractive, but is it not the same as the male gaze since it's women characters goking at a guy they find hot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZSYBkKec4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84en6e1h2CI

Why are people offended at Megan Fox being checked out in Transformers, but no one complains if it's a male character who is the object of the gaze?



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25 Jun 2021, 8:41 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but it is probably more implicit than overt.

As I've already stated several times, the preferences and POV of white cishet men is baked into our culture to the point that it's taken for granted that it's "normal," and anything that doesn't appeal to white cishet males is "abnormal."


Was Gillian Anderson's role as Dr Dana Scully also sexualised? I always thought her little outfits, pouting and expressions were quite hot


Nope.

Funny story, but, when casting for TXF, the show's creator was under pressure from the network to hire a Pamela Anderson clone.

He refused, and we got Gillian Anderson.


Is this true? Pamela Anderson could never have pulled off a credible FBI forensic doctor??
Although they got the surname correct :lol: Gillian or Loni Anderson



cyberdad
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25 Jun 2021, 8:45 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes I know people would call the cops if he showed up at their house, what does that have to do with anything though? I just meant I thought that if men can be sex symbols in the movies, then why can't women without us having to treat them as 'precious', or 'innocent', compared to men getting a pass.


Well...I think they do...I mean there is no social faux against having the hots for an actor



Bradleigh
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25 Jun 2021, 8:54 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but how is it not treated the same though? Here's a couple of movie clips with female character gazing at a male character they find attractive, but is it not the same as the male gaze since it's women characters goking at a guy they find hot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZSYBkKec4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84en6e1h2CI

Why are people offended at Megan Fox being checked out in Transformers, but no one complains if it's a male character who is the object of the gaze?


Let me get this straight, your examples of the female gaze is Grown Ups, which is an Adam Sandler comedy movie, and literally a James Bond movie.

I think that you are misunderstanding what the "male gaze" is. It is not about female characters gazing at some dude, it is about the assumption of what the point of view camera is, that the camera and direction is male, and gazes on things particular for a male perspective. To be specific of why these two you picked are really iffy, is that the staring at a well built man in the Adam Sandler movie is meant to be a joke in subverting him being attractive. While perhaps some ladies might enjoy the eye candy for a bit, it is meant to be undone after he speaks, so a presumably male audience wouldn't care that the camera just focused on a well build guy.

And James Bond is in general a super male power fantasy character, him being so desirable to women is a part of that, he is not at all being disempowered for that. Which really is kind of a complex subject of whether or how a character might be treated as an object for the male/female gaze. And I will repeat this, there is not actually something wrong with the gaze existing, just that its prevalence of the male is treated more seriously than the female one.

There is again something like the Twilight movies, which I think would be fair to say it has the female gaze. But also that answers are not to treat all genders as a piece of meat to even things out, and I think it is fair to say people were criticising that movie. But it is also that people lose their mind things don't align to to the kind of gaze they want, such as some weird discourse of certain types of gamers saying that female characters are not cute or sexy enough, like Alloy from the Horizon series. Or how these guys acted because of the Captain Marvel movie.


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funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 8:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but it is probably more implicit than overt.

As I've already stated several times, the preferences and POV of white cishet men is baked into our culture to the point that it's taken for granted that it's "normal," and anything that doesn't appeal to white cishet males is "abnormal."


Was Gillian Anderson's role as Dr Dana Scully also sexualised? I always thought her little outfits, pouting and expressions were quite hot


Nope.

Funny story, but, when casting for TXF, the show's creator was under pressure from the network to hire a Pamela Anderson clone.

He refused, and we got Gillian Anderson.


Is this true? Pamela Anderson could never have pulled off a credible FBI forensic doctor??
Although they got the surname correct :lol: Gillian or Loni Anderson


She couldn't have, but there's other women who could have except they were already typecast as bimbos so they would have likely been rejected even if they did the role as well as Anderson.

And then on top of that there were still people who did that to GA.


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