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dorkseid
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26 Jul 2021, 6:31 pm

Rho says that Christians know that they have experienced God.

Problem is, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, etc all have experiences that 'confirm' their beliefs and deities as well. Even Catholics have experiences of communing with their saints, which you don't believe in. How do explain away all of those people's experiences, but not the experiences of Christians?

Cue the special pleading.



RetroGamer87
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27 Jul 2021, 4:40 am

AngelRho wrote:
The problem is that the resurrection DID happen.
AngelRho wrote:
Well, supernatural events do happen and are responsible for your existence.
AngelRho wrote:
There is no such thing as knowledge that isn’t revealed by God.

This is just argument from assertion.


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cyberdad
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27 Jul 2021, 6:03 am

dorkseid wrote:
Rho says that Christians know that they have experienced God.

Problem is, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, etc all have experiences that 'confirm' their beliefs and deities as well. Even Catholics have experiences of communing with their saints, which you don't believe in. How do explain away all of those people's experiences, but not the experiences of Christians?

Cue the special pleading.


People who get high also claim to experience god (or gods)



aghogday
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27 Jul 2021, 8:29 am



What's Really Hilarious, Absurd, if Ya Wanna Use That Word

is Tiny Little Humans (Dudes) Attempting to Dictate The Way

The Rest of Creation Creates Always Changing in Flux Now

Like The PHI Golden Spiral Coming Up With A Mathematical

Equation Dictating to A Nautilus Sea Creature (Yes God) That

Creature is Somehow Bound by a Ratio of 1.618 Creating Through All the

Changes That Come With Day to Day Existence As Each Now of Existence

Is Eternally

Changing Now;

So True, the Nautilus

Establishes ItS own Unique

Spiral to Create Its Home of Shell

As All Of Nature Does; Yes, Me and You

And Us and We too And Even 'Them' too; Yes, All That is

Creation Now... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Aha!

Meanwhile

Tiny Little bitty
humans attempt
to fit all of Creation
CaLL iT 'God' and Fit it
in a Minuscule Book And

Close the Last Page of 800,000
or so Words And Limit All of Creation to that

Book... Yawn, i Knocked that out of 'the Park' on
the 'Wrong Planet' in a 'Depth of the Story' Thread

Over 800,000 Words in Just A Sideshow That 59,000
Views Said They Didn't Wanna View in 11 Months; Haha; Go
Ahead And Count the Words, if ya don't Believe... Anyway if

i Can't Fit God, Yes All of Creation in 9.5 MiLLioN Words

As One Human in 95 Months in a Longest EPiC Long Form
Poem Ever Written in the HiStory of Humankind as the Little

Boy Who Couldn't Speak Until 4;

There Dam Sure Ain't no way

A Bunch of Antiquated Dudes

Will Do it in Many Centuries

Among Many Ghost Authors

Among Many Copy Scribes Making

Mistakes And Intentional Changes too...

For It's True They Can't Even Manufacture

A Unique Galaxy in A Nautilus Shell in Just one Lifetime now...

i Can

i Will

Yet my

Nautilus
Shell is Different...

The Absurdity of Christianity

Is it Attempts to Fit Trademark 'God' in
Just one Tiny Mix-Matched Scripts of Book

And In Just One Tiny Brown

Dude With A Penis

When Women

Are So Much

More 'Spiritual'

Than Most Men Ever Dream of...

i Pay Attention to Folks Who Color
The World Love and Folks Who Do Not...

Overall, Christianity is Just A Stale Old Men's Club...

Grey Scale

At Best...

Boring at Most...

Truly Flavored With 'Ayn Rand' Indeed...

And On Top of that the 'Socialism' (Hero/JeSuS/GoD) Ends Up

As 'Stalin' (The Villain 'GoD') Killing 'Masses' of Enemies at the End...

As The So-Called Christians Continue to Congregate Unvaccinated
And Unmasked At Church in the Name of Freedom That Has no Love

For one Another...

Not Even

Enough

to Save A Life

With A Free Dam Shot

While Others Die Around the

World Without Even an Opportunity to

Save themself...

Yes, Now Still...

Christianity, Yuck!

As 'Sick' as 'Trump'

And Trump is Smart
Enough to Get Vaccinated

At Least to Save Himself...

Greatest Evil Still LiveS in Ignorance...

And Freedom UnMasked UnVaccinated As Soulless Ignorant
Selfishness So Far Away From Even Being A Social Animal

Where All Hands Efforts Count...

Love One Another

Requires More than

Freedom; Love One Another Requires

Responsibility For Everyone in the Tribe,

You Know, The Alpha Chimp Servant Leader With
Empathy; Not The Trump/Stalin/Jesus/God Deranged
Part of Love Killing Masses of People at the End of the Stories...

Christianity, As Practiced, Overall, Through the Ages, is As Absurd
As the 'Minions' Movies Series And As God Dam Scary As Real Now, Still


Ignorance Harms,
Rapes, Maims Kills...

Any Questions, 'Class'...

'Christianity', Overall, Unmasked And
Unvaccinated is Still Very Dangerous...

It's No Joke, And A Threat to Our Freedoms today...

For It Does NOT Take Responsibility to Love One
Another Masked And Vaccinated Enough, And That's

Just one Part of the

Harming,
Raping,
Maiming, Ignorance...

And of course Just one Religion...

And Just One Part of One Human Culture

Currently Destroying Living Nature; This Overall
Creation (GoD) ON EartH, We Are Uniquely Evolved
on to Survive; Yes, We All Depend on AS Home As

Cold And Hot Rocks in Space is Not This Place...

And It's Not Surprising

Non-Colorful
'Things' Arise
in SCaRCiTY oN EarTH...

Overall, Human CuLTuRE IS ABSURD...

Let's Not Just Pick on Christianity, Alone; it
is Only A Symptom of A Species OUT OF WHacKO

OUT OF BALANCE...

And Trump the "MeMe"

NoW iS 'Incarnate' of

This Current Human
Condition; True, Still Be
Careful Who Ya Congregate
For Each Sunday And Wish For in
A 'Magic Egregore Incantation' For Centuries...

Memes..

Stories...

Do Return in Fruition

Of Human Wishes and Creation as
Part of the Whole Creation (God) Pie;

Just Fractals Creating Nightmares And Dreams Real...

Night And Day; Dark And Light; Creation And Destruction

Resurrecting Again...

Go Figure...

The BaLL

ParK As Is STiLL NoW... CHANGE

For Balance At Best Or All of This WHacKO NoW



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AngelRho
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27 Jul 2021, 7:06 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The problem is that the resurrection DID happen.
AngelRho wrote:
Well, supernatural events do happen and are responsible for your existence.
AngelRho wrote:
There is no such thing as knowledge that isn’t revealed by God.

This is just argument from assertion.

No, it’s just having to work under an unusually heavy amount of pressure limiting my WP time, meaning I don’t get to expand on my position as much as I’d like. Chances are favoring me taking a break from WP in the near future until things settle down again.

The last quote is true because nothing can be claimed to be knowledge without it being known with absolute certainty. Human beings by themselves cannot make knowledge claims because the fallibility of the human mind, first of all, prevents anything from being reliably understood as absolutely known. Second, the limits on the human mind prohibit omniscience, meaning that human beings could never make knowledge claims since knowing any single thing with absolute certainty would require knowing everything with absolute certainty. Even if the mind functioned perfectly well, you still have limited knowledge.

If the human mind functions reasonably reliably enough to perceive something revealed by an omniscient being with an infallible mind, then that revelation would be understood in reliable, absolute terms. It is not extraordinary in the Christian mind that God created everything. Cause and effect is self-evident from nature, so it’s no stretch at all to make the observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause. We know that energy can be neither created nor destroyed and something cannot come from nothing. A transcendental creator, however, is capable of creating the universe ex nihilo, and YHWH as described in the Bible best fits that requirement as a necessary creator.

The resurrected Jesus appeared to His disciples, so it is incumbent on everyone to decide whether they believe the disciples were liars or not. Christians already know God has revealed himself to us. It is not necessary to assume the disciples were lying. If you make that assumption, then you are pitching your reliance on evidence out the window, possibly indicating an anti-supernatural bias. If you can make the case of them being liars without evidence, I can make the opposite claim (Hitchen’s Razor)—which has already been pointed out as mutually unconvincing. The difference between my claim and the opposite is that the requirement of evidence either results in infinite regress (you need evidence for your evidence for your evidence…) or, if you assume anything at any point to be true without evidence, circular reasoning (verifying the scientific method by using scientific verification). At some point, regardless of whether you are atheist, agnostic, Christian, or something else, faith is necessary for reliable reasoning.

As far as reliance on evidence goes, much of the problem arises when the evidence itself suffers the ravages of time. Exactly what, for instance, is getting in the way of logically concluding that aliens exist because of Mesoamerican and Egyptian pyramids? The civilizations that were active in building those structures are long gone, those who initiated those building projects have left little clues as to their purpose, and inscriptions are not entirely forthcoming in their meaning. Why not make the case for ancient astronauts? [No, I don’t believe that personally, but we don’t have that evidence. Why assume those ancient peoples even existed?] absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



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28 Jul 2021, 8:05 pm

All I know is that if I am dating someone, if she says “I’m saving myself for marriage” and/or “I will only do Missionary”, I’m out.


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XFilesGeek
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28 Jul 2021, 8:25 pm

What I find funny is that most of human history has occurred during the Paleolithic Age.

All of those humans, sent straight to Hell for not following Jesus, even though Jesus would not be born for many thousands of years.

Also, funny how Jesus is never depicted in cave drawings despite all humans supposedly just inherently "knowing" that Christianity is "true."

Personally, I'm going to keep my original stance that I know nothing.


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funeralxempire
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28 Jul 2021, 8:49 pm

You know the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible. You can't argue with logic like that. 8)


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28 Jul 2021, 8:58 pm

^ When people ask me why I'm not Christian, I tell them I don't get my morality from a book written by people who didn't know where the sun goes at night.


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28 Jul 2021, 9:43 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
What I find funny is that most of human history has occurred during the Paleolithic Age.
All of those humans, sent straight to Hell for not following Jesus, even though Jesus would not be born for many thousands of years.
.


I imagine God, Jesus and St Peter have to mull through applications from hell for retrospective consideration for Gog, Mogog, Ugg and other cavemen from the paleolithic era who would had been advised by satan their admission into paleolithic heaven (where there is endless supply of mastadon steak, beautiful cave hos to whack on the head, miles and miles of rolling plains of grass, an endless labrynth of caves to paint) was rejected due to their misfortune to have been born before Christ's coming,



KimD
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28 Jul 2021, 9:55 pm

I love you, Cyberdad! :)



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28 Jul 2021, 11:14 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
All I know is that if I am dating someone, if she says “I’m saving myself for marriage” and/or “I will only do Missionary”, I’m out.

Although I'm completely secular, I don't do casual sex, which I suppose proves that, contrary to Romans I, not all non-Christians are entirely devoid of morals (though in my case my motive is based on wisdom). As for the "missionary-only" thing, my personal preferences on that score are private, but AFAIK that restriction has never been Christian doctrine.



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01 Aug 2021, 5:02 pm

The thing about hard-core Christians that get my dander is that they try and tell you what to do, wear, think, how to behave and what music to listen to. I found this nut job on YouTube when I was posting my favourite song in the Art, Writing and Music section.


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cyberdad
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01 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
The thing about hard-core Christians that get my dander is that they try and tell you what to do, wear, think, how to behave and what music to listen to.


And what to eat
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-26/ ... t/12485284



KimD
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01 Aug 2021, 8:07 pm

Why I Hate John Lennon's 'Imagine': I have no imagination.


I do, however, have extraordinary dexterity for twisting words around and the bombast to present them as reasonable and sage.

8O



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02 Aug 2021, 12:41 am

AngelRho wrote:
The last quote is true because nothing can be claimed to be knowledge without it being known with absolute certainty. Human beings by themselves cannot make knowledge claims because the fallibility of the human mind, first of all, prevents anything from being reliably understood as absolutely known. Second, the limits on the human mind prohibit omniscience, meaning that human beings could never make knowledge claims since knowing any single thing with absolute certainty would require knowing everything with absolute certainty. Even if the mind functioned perfectly well, you still have limited knowledge.

If the human mind is fallible and imperfect and cannot know with certainty that something is true then it cannot know with certainty that there is an inhuman being supplying it with certain and unquestionable knowledge.

To say "no piece of knowledge can be known with certainty and then make an exception for the piece of knowledge that says there exists an omniscient being and he is supplying me with 100% guaranteed true knowledge is special pleading.

AngelRho wrote:
If the human mind functions reasonably reliably enough to perceive something revealed by an omniscient being with an infallible mind, then that revelation would be understood in reliable, absolute terms.

If
AngelRho wrote:
It is not extraordinary in the Christian mind that God created everything. Cause and effect is self-evident from nature, so it’s no stretch at all to make the observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause.

More special pleading. I remember they used to say everything has a cause. When more people started asking what was God's cause the armchair apologists amended this to "everything that has a beginning has a cause".

In other words, wanting to prove the earth has a cause their god doesn't, they picked out a quality possessed by their god and not possessed by the earth. This also counts as the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

AngelRho wrote:
We know that energy can be neither created nor destroyed and something cannot come from nothing. A transcendental creator, however, is capable of creating the universe ex nihilo, and YHWH as described in the Bible best fits that requirement as a necessary creator.

We don't know where this energy came from at all. We don't know who or what caused it to exist. Since we don't know that means we can't say for sure that the god of a specific religion was the source of this energy.

AngelRho wrote:
The resurrected Jesus appeared to His disciples, so it is incumbent on everyone to decide whether they believe the disciples were liars or not. Christians already know God has revealed himself to us. It is not necessary to assume the disciples were lying. If you make that assumption, then you are pitching your reliance on evidence out the window, possibly indicating an anti-supernatural bias. If you can make the case of them being liars without evidence, I can make the opposite claim (Hitchen’s Razor)

You have completely misunderstood Hitchens's Razor. You have also misspelled it.

Hitchen's Razor states that "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." It does not state that "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence and should then be replaced with another assertion that is without evidence."

AngelRho wrote:
As far as reliance on evidence goes, much of the problem arises when the evidence itself suffers the ravages of time.

What else should we rely on?

Is this why apologists typically rely on philosophical arguments rather than evidence? Because they don't have any?

AngelRho wrote:
Exactly what, for instance, is getting in the way of logically concluding that aliens exist because of Mesoamerican and Egyptian pyramids? The civilizations that were active in building those structures are long gone, those who initiated those building projects have left little clues as to their purpose, and inscriptions are not entirely forthcoming in their meaning.

They actually left behind some pretty good clues as to their purpose if you study them.

AngelRho wrote:
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Absence of evidence for a thing is not evidence for its absence but it also doesn't prove the thing exists.


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