Page 40 of 53 [ 835 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 ... 53  Next

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 12:13 am

ironpony wrote:
They are trying to shoehorn in themes that do not fit, and that is what being woke is I thought, was being preachy and trying to force themes into a story that doesn't have anything to do with them. Square peg, round hole in other words, or so that's what I thought a woke movie is.


That's one way to look at it. I think the other way is that movie producers/writers also want to capture the "zeitgeist" of the time which is a simple way to make the script/story relatable to a modern audience and make the movie/TV series thought provoking and deeper than a superficial action movie with gore/violence or superficial drama/rom com with the usual boy meets girl stuff. It's a tricky thing to marry up/weave into a script since there is a lot of the audience who just want the experience a fantasy or have an emotional experience.

But I think the message (when it's weaved into the story) is actually enjoyed by the naysayers even if they pretend afterward they were outraged/annoyed by its presence. A great example of this was the hot TV series MASH. One of the reasons MASH was a such a success was because the "woke" content about America's presence in Korea was very very authentic. The same with Alex Haley's Roots which aired as a miniseries. I am sure racists who privately watched the series were also moved by the trials and tribulations of being a slave but pretended afterward they hated it. Why? because again it was authentic.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 12:17 am

Oh okay. I haven't seen MASH so I cannot give an opinion on that one. I understand filmmakers want to capture the Zeightgeist of the times, but action movies like Charlie's Angels and T2 are not the genres for themes involving modern racism, sexism, etc.

The genre for these social justice type themes would I think be drama, or perhaps comedy, depending. But not the action or sci-fi genres, which filmmakers have been trying to shoehorn these themes into. It just doesn't work there, I would say.

I am not saying social justice themes cannot be done, but when you try to force it ontop of genre stories that do not support them, then it becomes forced and therefore woke.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 12:31 am

ironpony wrote:
I am not saying social justice themes cannot be done, but when you try to force it ontop of genre stories that do not support them, then it becomes forced and therefore woke.


Yeah I actually liked your metaphor of "shoehorning" social justice into television. I think the motivation to include social justice issues is present but many of the writers/producers are not very skilled in weaving it into a story without looking inauthentic and forced (as you say). This seems to be a lack of interest on the part of writers or producers who probably don't really understand the essence of the issue and how it impacts modern society (rather than the issue itself). So invariably their attempt to include a theme looks fake.

In the recent TV series "Vikings" norse shield maidens were given impossibly superhuman powers in taking out hundreds of Anglo-Saxon soldiers (bigger and stronger than them) which didn't really make sense to me and was probably an attempt to highlight the importance of female shield maidens to the viking success (which I don't dispute) but making them into "valkeries" that could mow through entire armies seemed difficult to stomach.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 12:53 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I am not saying social justice themes cannot be done, but when you try to force it ontop of genre stories that do not support them, then it becomes forced and therefore woke.


Yeah I actually liked your metaphor of "shoehorning" social justice into television. I think the motivation to include social justice issues is present but many of the writers/producers are not very skilled in weaving it into a story without looking inauthentic and forced (as you say). This seems to be a lack of interest on the part of writers or producers who probably don't really understand the essence of the issue and how it impacts modern society (rather than the issue itself). So invariably their attempt to include a theme looks fake.

In the recent TV series "Vikings" norse shield maidens were given impossibly superhuman powers in taking out hundreds of Anglo-Saxon soldiers (bigger and stronger than them) which didn't really make sense to me and was probably an attempt to highlight the importance of female shield maidens to the viking success (which I don't dispute) but making them into "valkeries" that could mow through entire armies seemed difficult to stomach.


Oh okay. I haven't seen that one either. One series I haven't seen accept for previews and read reviews of is the the new Anne Boleyn series, and it was criticized for making Anne Boleyn black, because it is historically in accurate, so I guess that would be another case of woke being shoehorned? Or does it not count as woke if it's just casting and not themes? I haven't seen it so I am not sure.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 1:21 am

ironpony wrote:
One series I haven't seen accept for previews and read reviews of is the the new Anne Boleyn series, and it was criticized for making Anne Boleyn black, because it is historically in accurate, so I guess that would be another case of woke being shoehorned? Or does it not count as woke if it's just casting and not themes? I haven't seen it so I am not sure.


Although I hate inaccurate historical dramas (including casting innapropriate ethnicities) I wonder if the casting choice in the Anne Boleyn series was an artistic choice?

If you watch the episodes objectively without being drawn into the actual history of Henry VIII then is it possible to accept/seem plausible to have a black Anne Boleyn if she pulls off the acting?

While I hated the acting from the black Achilles they chose for the BBC "Troy" I loved the acting from the black British actress Sophie Okenedo as Hemple, wife of the Roman prefect of Britain, Aulus Plautius in Brittania. She was hands down the best actor/actress in the entire 3 seasons. Best of all her character was believable enough so you look past the fact she's African.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 1:24 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
One series I haven't seen accept for previews and read reviews of is the the new Anne Boleyn series, and it was criticized for making Anne Boleyn black, because it is historically in accurate, so I guess that would be another case of woke being shoehorned? Or does it not count as woke if it's just casting and not themes? I haven't seen it so I am not sure.


Although I hate inaccurate historical dramas (including casting innapropriate ethnicities) I wonder if the casting choice in the Anne Boleyn series was an artistic choice?

If you watch the episodes objectively without being drawn into the actual history of Henry VIII then is it possible to accept/seem plausible to have a black Anne Boleyn if she pulls off the acting?

While I hated the acting from the black Achilles they chose for the BBC "Troy" I loved the acting from the black British actress Sophie Okenedo as Hemple, wife of the Roman prefect of Britain, Aulus Plautius in Brittania. She was hands down the best actor/actress in the entire 3 seasons. Best of all her character was believable enough so you look past the fact she's African.


I see what you are saying it an extent but even if it was artistic, does that make it okay compared to selling more of a realism though? Let's say for example they wanted to make a movie about a historical black person like say... Rosa Parks, or Miles Davis for example. If they cast white blue eyed actors to play those two because they felt that actor gave the best audition... Would a lot of people see this as artistic, or just an eye roller of a decision?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 1:28 am

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
One series I haven't seen accept for previews and read reviews of is the the new Anne Boleyn series, and it was criticized for making Anne Boleyn black, because it is historically in accurate, so I guess that would be another case of woke being shoehorned? Or does it not count as woke if it's just casting and not themes? I haven't seen it so I am not sure.


Although I hate inaccurate historical dramas (including casting innapropriate ethnicities) I wonder if the casting choice in the Anne Boleyn series was an artistic choice?

If you watch the episodes objectively without being drawn into the actual history of Henry VIII then is it possible to accept/seem plausible to have a black Anne Boleyn if she pulls off the acting?

While I hated the acting from the black Achilles they chose for the BBC "Troy" I loved the acting from the black British actress Sophie Okenedo as Hemple, wife of the Roman prefect of Britain, Aulus Plautius in Brittania. She was hands down the best actor/actress in the entire 3 seasons. Best of all her character was believable enough so you look past the fact she's African.


I see what you are saying it an extent but even if it was artistic, does that make it okay compared to selling more of a realism though? Let's say for example they wanted to make a movie about a historical black person like say... Rosa Parks, or Miles Davis for example. If they cast white blue eyed actors to play those two because they felt that actor gave the best audition... Would a lot of people see this as artistic, or just an eye roller of a decision?


Yes that;s an interesting contrast isn't it. What are views about the casting of Zoe Saldana in the move about legendary jazz singer Nina Simone? It caused an uproar because they needed to "black face" Zoe to make her look like Nina.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 1:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
One series I haven't seen accept for previews and read reviews of is the the new Anne Boleyn series, and it was criticized for making Anne Boleyn black, because it is historically in accurate, so I guess that would be another case of woke being shoehorned? Or does it not count as woke if it's just casting and not themes? I haven't seen it so I am not sure.


Although I hate inaccurate historical dramas (including casting innapropriate ethnicities) I wonder if the casting choice in the Anne Boleyn series was an artistic choice?

If you watch the episodes objectively without being drawn into the actual history of Henry VIII then is it possible to accept/seem plausible to have a black Anne Boleyn if she pulls off the acting?

While I hated the acting from the black Achilles they chose for the BBC "Troy" I loved the acting from the black British actress Sophie Okenedo as Hemple, wife of the Roman prefect of Britain, Aulus Plautius in Brittania. She was hands down the best actor/actress in the entire 3 seasons. Best of all her character was believable enough so you look past the fact she's African.


I see what you are saying it an extent but even if it was artistic, does that make it okay compared to selling more of a realism though? Let's say for example they wanted to make a movie about a historical black person like say... Rosa Parks, or Miles Davis for example. If they cast white blue eyed actors to play those two because they felt that actor gave the best audition... Would a lot of people see this as artistic, or just an eye roller of a decision?


Yes that;s an interesting contrast isn't it. What are views about the casting of Zoe Saldana in the move about legendary jazz singer Nina Simone? It caused an uproar because they needed to "black face" Zoe to make her look like Nina.


In the case of Nina Simone, would have gone better if they didn't have Zoe Saldana wear make up? When Malcolm X (1992) came out, some people noted that Denzel Washington was too black looking for the role, compared to the real Malcolm X who was more mixed. But maybe they felt Washington was 'close enough' in a sense, and would Zaldana have been more successful if they felt she was close enough?

But as far as having to make Zaldana's skin darker, is that really any different than say, putting John Lithgow in a fat suit for the movie Bombshell? It's just part of the make up to sell the character, isn't it? In the movie W. (2008), they make Thandie Newton look 30 years older to play Condoleezza Rice. Is that any different?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 2:09 am

ironpony wrote:
In the case of Nina Simone, would have gone better if they didn't have Zoe Saldana wear make up? When Malcolm X (1992) came out, some people noted that Denzel Washington was too black looking for the role, compared to the real Malcolm X who was more mixed. But maybe they felt Washington was 'close enough' in a sense, and would Zaldana have been more successful if they felt she was close enough?

But as far as having to make Zaldana's skin darker, is that really any different than say, putting John Lithgow in a fat suit for the movie Bombshell? It's just part of the make up to sell the character, isn't it? In the movie W. (2008), they make Thandie Newton look 30 years older to play Condoleezza Rice. Is that any different?


Yes Malcolm X is another interesting choice, Denzel is a brilliant actor. My guess is the producers wanted the best black male actor to play the role. The problem is with the casting is that part of Malcolm X's persona was his intimidating yet charismatic presence. He was very tall, skinny, well toned, fair skinned and had a bright red shock of hair. He looked like a cross between a nerd but extremely intimidating. In terms of appearance, Denzel looks/appears nothing like Malcolm X. I don't think Denzel carries himself well enough (as brilliant an actor as he is) to pull that off.

Nina Simone was a jazz singer and her dark skinned appearance mean't she experienced both racism and colourism within the black community (something the black community pretends to be concerned about but rarely addresses). Zoe Saldana isn't technically African American, she self identifies as Latina. That hardly makes her an appropriate choice.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 2:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
In the case of Nina Simone, would have gone better if they didn't have Zoe Saldana wear make up? When Malcolm X (1992) came out, some people noted that Denzel Washington was too black looking for the role, compared to the real Malcolm X who was more mixed. But maybe they felt Washington was 'close enough' in a sense, and would Zaldana have been more successful if they felt she was close enough?

But as far as having to make Zaldana's skin darker, is that really any different than say, putting John Lithgow in a fat suit for the movie Bombshell? It's just part of the make up to sell the character, isn't it? In the movie W. (2008), they make Thandie Newton look 30 years older to play Condoleezza Rice. Is that any different?


Yes Malcolm X is another interesting choice, Denzel is a brilliant actor. My guess is the producers wanted the best black male actor to play the role. The problem is with the casting is that part of Malcolm X's persona was his intimidating yet charismatic presence. He was very tall, skinny, well toned, fair skinned and had a bright red shock of hair. He looked like a cross between a nerd but extremely intimidating. In terms of appearance, Denzel looks/appears nothing like Malcolm X. I don't think Denzel carries himself well enough (as brilliant an actor as he is) to pull that off.

Nina Simone was a jazz singer and her dark skinned appearance mean't she experienced both racism and colourism within the black community (something the black community pretends to be concerned about but rarely addresses). Zoe Saldana isn't technically African American, she self identifies as Latina. That hardly makes her an appropriate choice.


Oh okay I see. I haven't seen the Simone movie and I didn't know what race Zaldana was, so I didn't really have an opinion on that, other than the photo comparison between the two.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 2:43 am

SO the point is that what is woke today has been playing out in movie casting for many years. People were having heart palpitations over the casting of Merlene Oberon in Hollywood in the 1920s/30s because of her dubious ethnicity but Hollywood men couldn't get enough of her exotic good looks.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

28 Jan 2022, 7:12 pm

Well I think also one of the reasons why woke themes in movies do not work well nowadays is that themes of racism and sexism are old and cliche, and it's very been there seen that in movies and storytelling. Even if they are hot topics in real life in terms of zeitgeist, for entertainment purposes, it is old and been done a lot before though.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,932
Location: Adelaide, Australia

28 Jan 2022, 8:27 pm

Complaining about minorities in movies when they hope to sell more tickets to those minorities is just conservatives complaining about the results of a free market.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 9:47 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well I think also one of the reasons why woke themes in movies do not work well nowadays is that themes of racism and sexism are old and cliche, and it's very been there seen that in movies and storytelling. Even if they are hot topics in real life in terms of zeitgeist, for entertainment purposes, it is old and been done a lot before though.


Yes that aligns to what I said before that (if done properly) they can be relatable because they do happen to be topical (and therefore relatable). I am not averse to agreeing that when the "woke" content is inserted clumsily then it could stick out like a sore thumb and irritate the audience.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

28 Jan 2022, 9:53 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Complaining about minorities in movies when they hope to sell more tickets to those minorities is just conservatives complaining about the results of a free market.


Good point, There are arguments on both sides, Since the biggest market for television/movies are white then it makes sense that movie producers play safe and have a predominantly white cast playing major roles.

A simple example is that if a role could be cast by a younger Brad Pitt or a younger Denzel Washington back in 1990, Washington is (of the two) the best choice in terms of acting. But a producer also has to consider the white female audience and ticket/video sales from this market and we already know that if you walk into a white teenage girl's bedroom in 1990 there were no posters of Denzel Washington on their walls,.



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,242
Location: Long Island, New York

03 Feb 2022, 11:14 pm

’Undercover Mothers’ reveal how they’re fighting ‘wokeness’ in schools

Quote:
A casual group of moms who got together in secret last summer to discuss what they felt was increasing and alarming “wokeness” in NYC private schools has morphed over the past six months into a stealth guerrilla powerhouse.

The organization has a core of about 25 mother activists who preside over a network of more than a hundred undercover mothers from LA to Texas to Miami. They say they were inspired first by two Ohio mothers, Amy Gonzalez and Andrea Gross, whose kids were expelled from private school in July 2021 after the moms pushed back against critical race theory.

Undercover Mother members also credit former Grace Church teacher Paul Rossi, booted from the classroom after he voiced doubts about the school’s new “woke” curriculum last year as well as Andrew Gutmann, a former Brearley School father who wrote a scathing open letter to the school in 2021, with giving them motivation and courage.

Undercover Mother’s chief weapons are a salty Twitter feed and a hard-hitting and prolific Substack that’s come out with 30 dispatches so far about so-called “anti-racism” and gender and sex education in schools since August 2021.

Sample post titles include: “You Are Being Gaslighted,” “Social Justice Chess,” “Is Math Racist?” “The Cult of Wokeness is Frying Our Children’s Brains” and “It’s All about the $Money$.”

Some Substack posts are brief and include material sent to them anonymously from parents, teachers and school trustees — like a lengthy policy recently enacted at Mt. Sinai school advocating for “gender neutral bathroom facilities.”

“An example of your school’s priorities,” Undercover Mother snapped on Aug. 17. “They are focused on bathroom ‘gendering’ instead of real education.”

The members of Undercover Mother who spoke to The Post identified themselves and their locations but asked that they remain anonymous for fear both they and their children could face retribution. They said they’ve already had to “shed” a few faux-mothers who were trying to infiltrate the group.

“We don’t know who they really were or why they were there but it was clear they were up to no good,” one mother said.

The ultra-secrecy helps the cause, one said.

No one can stop us because they don’t know who we are,” she said.

The mothers of the group communicate almost solely over the encrypted phone app Signal and do not disclose their real last names — even to each other. They’re fighting what they say is a dangerous “wokeness” flooding private schools all over the US and they’ve targeted the powerful NAIS, the National Association of Independent Schools, which they say is driving the ideology.

The Undercover Mother members say they are not affiliated with any outside political organizations or public relations companies.

“We have done a tremendous amount of research and investigative work over the past six months,” a Manhattan-based Undercover Mother told The Post. “This is not just about critical race theory. We aren’t going through book stacks at the school libraries. We believe there are a hierarchy of problems and if you solve the ones at the top, the bottom ones will resolve themselves.”

Their Substack has only 2,500 subscribers at present and their Twitter feed has just over 1,500 followers but four Undercover Mother members told The Post that the number of people who read them anonymously is far greater.

“Many parents are too scared to follow us (on Twitter) because it’s public and they could get in trouble,” one mother from New York said. “Some have asked that we not follow them. It’s the same with the Substack. Many people get it emailed to them from others because they don’t want to be publicly affiliated with us. But we get so many emails from parents telling us what we do is so valuable and that they’re so grateful.”

Another mother, who is Asian-American and lives in California, told The Post the mothers resent being labeled as racist or right-wing or that they are against the teaching of the history of slavery. Among the mothers are several black women.

“Some of us have been the targets of racism ourselves,” she said. “Many of us have experienced discrimination racially in our past. This is not about race and this has nothing to do with the teaching or not teaching about race. We are not redneck racists. We are all humans.”

An Undercover Mother from the West said she noticed a “slow creep” toward a new ideology in her kids’ once “warm, loving” private school beginning in 2016.

One day my fifth grader came home and said, ‘Mom did you know I’m part of the dominant, oppressive majority? Another of my kids came home and said I am the only kid who doesn’t have an identity. My head almost popped off. She’s 12 years old and she was referring to her gender and sexual identity. It was very confusing. She cried. She felt left out because she didn’t have an identity to brag about.”

“My firm would terminate me and I’d probably lose a friend or two if I said out loud what many of us already talk about privately”.

“But the continuous manipulating of facts and gaslighting of our parents must stop…,” the trustee added. “As trustees, we have let the woke mob and the woke agenda determine our direction. We have lost our way. “

Undercover Mother focuses a lot of its wrath on NAIS, a non-profit association of more than 1,900 private schools that was founded in 1962 but has fairly recently begun focusing heavily on so-called “social justice” imperatives and emphasizing all things DEI — diversity, equity and inclusion.

NAIS does not officially dole out all-important accreditations to private schools but it has a strong sway over the regional accrediting bodies, according to many parents who spoke to The Post.

NAIS was founded…. around the time modern western Marxist and extremist philosophers and activists were getting started,” Undercover Mother wrote in a September post titled, “NAIS – An Origin Story.” “NAIS is not an organization that simply is an accrediting body or resource. It has an agenda that it wants to influence and implement nationally. For example, NAIS encourages racially segregating kindergarteners!”


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman