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Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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magz
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19 May 2022, 4:23 am

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/zelensky-mock ... 25421.html

Quote:
“In the propaganda of Nazi Germany, there was such a term ‘wunderwaffe’... wonder weapon,” the president said.

“The clearer it became they had no chance of winning the war, the more propaganda there was about the wonder weapon, that would be so powerful it would provide a turning point in the war.

“Russia is trying to find its ‘wunderwaffe’. Allegedly laser.”

My opinion: on the strategic level, Russians are already losing but Ukrainians are not winning yet.

Peace can be win-win.
Wars can be win-lose or lose-lose.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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19 May 2022, 7:00 am

magz wrote:
My opinion: on the strategic level, Russians are already losing but Ukrainians are not winning yet.
Peace can be win-win.
Wars can be win-lose or lose-lose.


That and the Wunderwaffe thing do sound about right.


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19 May 2022, 7:24 am

Funny video of George Bush if he can admit his invasion was brutal and an error I’m sure Vlad can one day

https://mobile.twitter.com/sahilkapur/s ... 1195226114


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19 May 2022, 12:21 pm

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4:32 So does it mean that Russia is winning? Probably between these two there are no clear winners. Well it seems clear that both sides are tolerating pain a lot of pain. Perhaps in the end a lot will be decided by who eventually has the capacity to tolerate more pain.



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19 May 2022, 12:57 pm

Well won't it still look bad politically when Russia agrees to stop the war to get their trade back, and then we give them their trade back? Will it look bad if NATO goes back to trading with them, after these war crimes? But at the same time, we have to go back to trading with them as an agreement, if they stop the invasion?



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19 May 2022, 6:00 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well won't it still look bad politically when Russia agrees to stop the war to get their trade back, and then we give them their trade back? Will it look bad if NATO goes back to trading with them, after these war crimes? But at the same time, we have to go back to trading with them as an agreement, if they stop the invasion?


Greed/politics conquers morality/justice.
People don't learn the lessons of the past very well.
But pootin might be dead soon, whether through cancer or a coup. :thumright:

His era is nearing the end.
Let us prepare for the next A-hole that replaces him. 8)



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19 May 2022, 7:11 pm

magz wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/zelensky-mocks-russia-trying-wunderwaffe-082225421.html
Quote:
“In the propaganda of Nazi Germany, there was such a term ‘wunderwaffe’... wonder weapon,” the president said.

“The clearer it became they had no chance of winning the war, the more propaganda there was about the wonder weapon, that would be so powerful it would provide a turning point in the war.

“Russia is trying to find its ‘wunderwaffe’. Allegedly laser.”

My opinion: on the strategic level, Russians are already losing but Ukrainians are not winning yet.

Peace can be win-win.
Wars can be win-lose or lose-lose.

Most wars are lose-lose. In this case, Ukraine surviving is "winning". But they will be a shell of what they were, they are going to have to start almost from scratch. I have a hard time calling that winning. That they will have that opportunity is a huge credit to them.


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19 May 2022, 7:14 pm

I feel like Ukraine, ultimately, will be okay.

I believe they will get a massive amount of rebuilding aid----rather like the Marshall Plan right after World War 2.



magz
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20 May 2022, 2:48 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Most wars are lose-lose. In this case, Ukraine surviving is "winning". But they will be a shell of what they were, they are going to have to start almost from scratch. I have a hard time calling that winning. That they will have that opportunity is a huge credit to them.
Securing their borders and international position as independent form Russia would be a "win". That's what before they had only formally (formally souvereign but Russia violated their borders and messed up with their internal politics) but now they can gain it in reality.
That's the very foundation of building a souvereign state.

The rest will need rebuilding. I've seen with my own eyes, how much economy and infrastructure can be built in 10, 20, 30 years, even without "Marshall plans", just with getting rid of the main obstacle. If Ukraine can make sure they're not invaded again (e.g. finally join NATO...), they'll be a great place for new investments.


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magz
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20 May 2022, 3:03 am

ironpony wrote:
Well won't it still look bad politically when Russia agrees to stop the war to get their trade back, and then we give them their trade back? Will it look bad if NATO goes back to trading with them, after these war crimes? But at the same time, we have to go back to trading with them as an agreement, if they stop the invasion?
NATO does not do trade.
NATO member states - each will make their own decisions.
France and Germany, probably Italy, too, would like to sweep things under the carpet and go back to trade even now, if it wouldn't make them look bad. On the other hand, e.g. Poland, Baltic States, UK and USA seem more concerned by a prospect of Russia rebuilding their military power and striking again, so this group is likely to push with sanctions for longer.


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20 May 2022, 3:40 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
magz wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/zelensky-mocks-russia-trying-wunderwaffe-082225421.html
Quote:
“In the propaganda of Nazi Germany, there was such a term ‘wunderwaffe’... wonder weapon,” the president said.

“The clearer it became they had no chance of winning the war, the more propaganda there was about the wonder weapon, that would be so powerful it would provide a turning point in the war.

“Russia is trying to find its ‘wunderwaffe’. Allegedly laser.”

My opinion: on the strategic level, Russians are already losing but Ukrainians are not winning yet.

Peace can be win-win.
Wars can be win-lose or lose-lose.

Most wars are lose-lose. In this case, Ukraine surviving is "winning". But they will be a shell of what they were, they are going to have to start almost from scratch. I have a hard time calling that winning. That they will have that opportunity is a huge credit to them.


I'd be surprised if there isn't going to be a significant influx of various types of help, from other countries, to help rebuild Ukraine.



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20 May 2022, 3:43 am

magz wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well won't it still look bad politically when Russia agrees to stop the war to get their trade back, and then we give them their trade back? Will it look bad if NATO goes back to trading with them, after these war crimes? But at the same time, we have to go back to trading with them as an agreement, if they stop the invasion?
NATO does not do trade.
NATO member states - each will make their own decisions.
France and Germany, probably Italy, too, would like to sweep things under the carpet and go back to trade even now, if it wouldn't make them look bad. On the other hand, e.g. Poland, Baltic States, UK and USA seem more concerned by a prospect of Russia rebuilding their military power and striking again, so this group is likely to push with sanctions for longer.


I expect this to be the case.
The same greed fuelled China's growth.



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20 May 2022, 4:01 am

magz wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well won't it still look bad politically when Russia agrees to stop the war to get their trade back, and then we give them their trade back? Will it look bad if NATO goes back to trading with them, after these war crimes? But at the same time, we have to go back to trading with them as an agreement, if they stop the invasion?
NATO does not do trade.
NATO member states - each will make their own decisions.
France and Germany, probably Italy, too, would like to sweep things under the carpet and go back to trade even now, if it wouldn't make them look bad. On the other hand, e.g. Poland, Baltic States, UK and USA seem more concerned by a prospect of Russia rebuilding their military power and striking again, so this group is likely to push with sanctions for longer.


Sanctions against Russia won't end as soon as the fighting ends. It would be a slow release once certain conditions have been met. And yes I agree the western European states will probably release sanctions long before former eastern bloc states. They were reluctant to impose them from the beginning. Former eastern bloc states may hold onto them a lot longer. They were first out of the gate in imposing sanctions and this whole invasion brought up a lot of bad memories.



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20 May 2022, 4:07 am

Pepe wrote:
I expect this to be the case.
The same greed fuelled China's growth.

Or is a poor third world China more your expectation?
China's globalization is inseparable from the support of the United States from the very beginning. It is only in less than a decade that economic structural contradictions have begun to emerge that have led China and the United States to change from cooperation to conflict.


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magz
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20 May 2022, 4:18 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I expect this to be the case.
The same greed fuelled China's growth.
Or is a poor third world China more your expectation?
China's globalization is inseparable from the support of the United States from the very beginning. It is only in less than a decade that economic structural contradictions have begun to emerge that have led China and the United States to change from cooperation to conflict.
But both are still too interdependent to make this conflict open.
I have some trust in Chinese pragmatism, at least for now. They know starting a war means giant losses.
Russian war is making this argument even more reassuring.


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20 May 2022, 7:20 am

magz wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Or is a poor third world China more your expectation?
China's globalization is inseparable from the support of the United States from the very beginning. It is only in less than a decade that economic structural contradictions have begun to emerge that have led China and the United States to change from cooperation to conflict.
But both are still too interdependent to make this conflict open.
I have some trust in Chinese pragmatism, at least for now. They know starting a war means giant losses.

Um...Trump is not so "cautious".
But yes, although Biden seems to have more tricks, he knows how to keep most of them from being seen at least at a glance.

I would be concerned about the predicted economic crisis and overcapacity.
China will definitely not actively seek full-scale war, but proxy wars are still possible.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

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