Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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magz
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30 Sep 2022, 9:17 am

Things are speeding up.
After Putin announced annexation of Ukrainian territories (including areas under Ukrainian control - welcome to the alternative world of Russian propaganda), Zelenskyy applies for accelerated NATO membership.
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/mi ... rayi-78173


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carlos55
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30 Sep 2022, 10:53 am

All insane stuff from Russia unfortunatly

Ukraine could in theory call Putin`s bluff & let those 4 areas + Crimea go & quickly join NATO as they would officially no longer have disputed borders.

Although that`s unlikely


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30 Sep 2022, 11:26 am

magz wrote:
Things are speeding up.
After Putin announced annexation of Ukrainian territories (including areas under Ukrainian control - welcome to the alternative world of Russian propaganda), Zelenskyy applies for accelerated NATO membership.
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/mi ... rayi-78173


Things are getting very serious very fast.

I have also read the same information as Carlos55. Although the version I read said that NATO won't accept countries who are in war, but officially it isn't a war, it's an invasion.


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KitLily
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30 Sep 2022, 11:29 am

magz wrote:
Maybe Belarus, which is currently practically occupied by Russia... but no, I don't think so. They don't want to become annexed themselves.
AFAIK, even Russia's "friends" like China and Central Asian republics won't back them on this - they know it could some day happen to them...


I think you are right, Magz. All countries bordering Russia, e.g. Finland, must be hurrying to bolster their defences and not be heard agreeing with Russia.

I read that Finland is building fences and security apparatus on a large part of its border with Russia.


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magz
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30 Sep 2022, 11:49 am

KitLily wrote:
magz wrote:
Things are speeding up.
After Putin announced annexation of Ukrainian territories (including areas under Ukrainian control - welcome to the alternative world of Russian propaganda), Zelenskyy applies for accelerated NATO membership.
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/mi ... rayi-78173


Things are getting very serious very fast.

I have also read the same information as Carlos55. Although the version I read said that NATO won't accept countries who are in war, but officially it isn't a war, it's an invasion.
Formal NATO membership requires agreement of all the other NATO members, when it takes months, it's super-speedy. If Ukraine (with Western help in current form) manages to secure their borders, there'll be no objection, I believe, to further integration.
That would likely prevent more invasion attempts later - as long as the "Great Russia" myth is strong, Ukraine must rely on force and Western help to preserve their independence.


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magz
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30 Sep 2022, 4:12 pm

magz wrote:
Meanwhile...
Image
Brace for another pack of horrorous discoveries once Lyman is liberated.

Image
Just a couple of hours.
Lyman surrounded.


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Worthless
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01 Oct 2022, 2:20 am

magz wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Recongized by who? Only putin's russia? Somehow I don't think he's going to get the world to side with him on this one..
Maybe Belarus, which is currently practically occupied by Russia... but no, I don't think so. They don't want to become annexed themselves.
AFAIK, even Russia's "friends" like China and Central Asian republics won't back them on this - they know it could some day happen to them...



belarus and russia are the same country in to some degree. They are the only two members of some legal pact that is supposed to merge them as one including the same currency.



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01 Oct 2022, 3:25 am

https://www.unz.com/pescobar/who-profit ... ne-terror/

Who Profits from Pipeline Terror?

Every crime implies motive. The Russian government wanted – at least up to the sabotage – to sell oil and natural gas to the EU. The notion that Russian intel would destroy Gazprom pipelines is beyond ludicrous. All they had to do was to turn off the valves. NS2 was not even operational, based on a political decision from Berlin. The gas flow in NS was hampered by western sanctions. Moreover, such an act would imply Moscow losing key strategic leverage over the EU.

Diplomatic sources confirm that Berlin and Moscow were involved in a secret negotiation to solve both the NS and NS2 issues. So they had to be stopped – no holds barred. Geopolitically, the entity that had the motive to halt a deal holds anathema a possible alliance in the horizon between Germany, Russia, and China.

...

The hypothesis focuses on the Polish Navy and Special Forces as the physical perpetrators (quite plausible; the report offers very good internal details), American planning and technical support (extra plausible), and aid by the Danish and Swedish militaries (inevitable, considering this was very close to their territorial waters, even if it took place in international waters).

The hypothesis perfectly ties in with a conversation with a top German intelligence source, who told The Cradle that the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND or German intelligence) was “furious” because “they were not in the loop.”

Of course not. If the hypothesis is correct, this was a glaringly anti-German operation, carrying the potential of metastasizing into an intra-NATO war.

The much-quoted NATO Article 5 – ‘an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us’ – obviously does not say anything about a NATO-on-NATO attack. After the pipeline punctures, NATO issued a meek statement “believing” what happened was sabotage and will “respond” to any deliberate attack on its critical infrastructure. NS and NS2, incidentally, are not part of NATO’s infrastructure.

The whole operation had to be approved by Americans, and deployed under their Divide and Rule trademark. “Americans” in this case means the Neo-conservatives and Neo-liberals running the government machinery in Washington, behind the senile teleprompter reader.


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magz
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01 Oct 2022, 3:49 am

Mikah wrote:
The Russian government wanted – at least up to the sabotage – to sell oil and natural gas to the EU. The notion that Russian intel would destroy Gazprom pipelines is beyond ludicrous.

False and false.
Russia wanted to sell gas to EU but that wasn't the only - probably not even the main - goal of them. They wanted to make EU dependent on their gas, so EU does not stand against their other actions.
And now it failed. It failed together with the direct commercial goal, as Germany signed other contracts and designated Russia unreliable as a commercial partner. After all that has happened, there's no perspective to go back to what used to be.

So, Nord Streams are useless for Russia now - both commercially and politically.

I'm not saying they did it but I'm saying they had nothing to lose and a lot to gain if they succeeded to start chaos in the West and make NATO members distrust each other.


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01 Oct 2022, 4:05 am

magz wrote:
Mikah wrote:
The Russian government wanted – at least up to the sabotage – to sell oil and natural gas to the EU. The notion that Russian intel would destroy Gazprom pipelines is beyond ludicrous.

False and false.
Russia wanted to sell gas to EU but that wasn't the only - probably not even the main - goal of them. They wanted to make EU dependent on their gas, so EU does not stand against their other actions.
And it failed. It failed together with the direct commercial goal, as Germany signed other contracts and designated Russia unreliable as a commercial partner.

So, Nord Streams are useless for Russia now - both commercially and politically.

I'm not saying they did it but I'm saying they had nothing to lose and a lot to gain if they succeeded to rip apart NATO.


Nothing to lose? It just does not make good sense to blow up such a valuable pipeline for a slim chance of turning Germany against NATO by framing them. Europe faces a very harsh winter - having those pipelines ready at a moments notice would put enormous pressure on European governments to lay off Russia and let the gas flow once more. Even with the sanctions, until they were blown up, Nord Stream remained a strategic advantage held by the Russians - all they had to do was wait as the unrest grew in Europe.

If the diplomatic cables are true and Germany and Russia were in secret talks to fix and reopen NS 1 and 2 - then the urgent need of the U.S. and allies to blow up those pipelines is even more clear.


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magz
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01 Oct 2022, 4:39 am

This pipe has stopped to be valuable if they can't use it to either sell gas or pressure EU. Russia already was not fulfilling their existing contracts through them, so I don't know your "diplomatic cables" but even if the talks were taking place, they were unlikely to succeed. Too much risk to do busines with a partner who has shown this level of unpredictability.
It is even possible - I'm not saying it's true or even likely but I wouldn't rule it out - that blowing up the pipes was a direct result of definite failure of these talks.

How much extremely valuable equipment do you send to destroy in a war? And they did start a war, they are at war.


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KitLily
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01 Oct 2022, 6:13 am

magz wrote:
Formal NATO membership requires agreement of all the other NATO members, when it takes months, it's super-speedy. If Ukraine (with Western help in current form) manages to secure their borders, there'll be no objection, I believe, to further integration.
That would likely prevent more invasion attempts later - as long as the "Great Russia" myth is strong, Ukraine must rely on force and Western help to preserve their independence.


Can you explain what you mean, Magz, I'm a bit confused. Who is integrating into who?

I hope Ukraine can join NATO without a bigger war starting.

Poor Lyman.


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Mikah
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01 Oct 2022, 7:46 am

magz wrote:
This pipe has stopped to be valuable if they can't use it to either sell gas or pressure EU. Russia already was not fulfilling their existing contracts through them, so I don't know your "diplomatic cables" but even if the talks were taking place, they were unlikely to succeed.


Not valuable right now, no, but immeasurably valuable in multiple senses in the future. There is no guarantee that extant anti-Russian European governments will remain in power in the near future - it doesn't take many cold and hungry people to overthrow an existing ruler.

magz wrote:
How much extremely valuable equipment do you send to destroy in a war?


Sure, but this is far too stupid and short-sighted to be believable. Those lines being severed mean those in charge in Europe can truthfully say that a change in party or policy won't bring the gas and cheap food back any time soon. The US's foreign policy objectives regarding NS2, Russia, Germany, Ukraine and the rest of Europe are satisfied with this action - their business interests in exporting oil will likely see a boon too. While if Russia had wanted to stop the gas for whatever reason, they could have done that by ... turning off the gas at the tap, not blowing the thing up.

It has hurt Russia's future options far more than the other side's and all for an outside chance of hurting US-Germany relations you say?


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01 Oct 2022, 7:50 am

Magz means, I believe, that Ukraine would be “integrated” into NATO. Become a member of NATO.



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01 Oct 2022, 7:53 am

I feel the Russian government will eventually implode into itself.



Mikah
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01 Oct 2022, 7:56 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel the Russian government will eventually implode into itself.


Entirely possible, but that is unlikely to make things better. Even now, Putin contains Russian nationalism much more than he placates it. His replacement is likely to be worse.


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I will not say the Day is done,
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