Open Season in openly New York City Jews
ASPartOfMe
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Age: 66
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Location: Long Island, New York
Back when you "followed the 9/11 truth movement closely," did you look not only at the 9/11 conspiracy theories themselves, but also at the grand conspiracy ideology ("Illuminati", "New World Order," various nonsense about the Federal Reserve, etc.) that was being promoted by Alex Jones and similar figures?
Here in NYC, back in 2007 or so, there was a group of Alex Jones fans who splintered out of the main New York 9/11 Truth organization and started their own organization, whose name I don't remember offhand. This group not only promoted the idea that "9/11 was an inside job," but also used 9/11 conspiracy claims as a gateway drug to promote Alex Jones's larger conspiratorial worldview.
Most of this grand conspiracy ideology was much older than 9/11. But the 9/11 Truth movement was being used, by some activists, as a vehicle to promote grand conspiracy ideology.
Not everyone in the 9/11 Truth movement accepted Alex Jones's extreme right wing views. The 9/11 Truth movement itself included a wide variety of people from across the political spectrum. But there was definitely a wing of the 9/11 Truth movement that did promote various extreme right wing views.
Mossad was a popular suspect. The "dancing Israelis" was based on an actual case where 5 Israelis were arrested filming the aftermath of the attack and were suspected of being spies. It is inarguable that Israel had the motive to scare the American public into further support. That said that Israel would take a risk of infuriating the country they were almost completely dependent on seems implausible but who knows?
That the Jews had advanced knowledge was something that started in Arab newspapers right away but had minimal traction afterwords.
There were no 9/11 truthers running around attacking random people who looked Jewish or praising Hitler.
Indeed my main concern was not the 9/11 Truth movement itself but the grand conspiracy ideologists who opportunistically latched on to the 9/11 Truth movement.
Another category of people who opportunistically glommed on to the 9/11 Truth movement was Holocaust deniers. The vast majority of 9/11 Truthers were not Holocaust deniers, but some were, and the 9/11 Truth movement subculture was a convenient place for them to try to gain an audience.
Indeed I don't draw a straight line between the anti-Jewish aspects of some 9/11 conspiracy claims and now. But I do draw a straight line between the ideology Alex Jones and his fans were promoting back then and Pizzagate/QAnon, and I do draw an almost-straight line from Alex Jones's ideology to the recent revival of ideas from the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and "The International Jew." Additionally, Alex Jones and some of his many followers, including those here in NYC, were actively working to build the general far-right political and social milieux that eventually blossomed into today's far-right.
The "Great Replacement Theory" was indeed fringe back then. But the far-right milieux built by Alex Jones and his followers certainly helped it grow and eventually become not quite so fringe anymore.
As I recall up up until 2009 or Jones concentrated on the neo cons. It was around 2009 he started concentrating on a supposed small group of elitists who really ran the world implanting a secret plan over generations. The Bohemian club where it all happened.
Of course I worried about the anti semetic blowback from the Mossad did it theories. I knew they are ruthless in pursuit of preventing Holocaust 2.0 trying to stamp out any hint of threat so I could not totally dismiss it out of hand as anti Semitic paranoia. I was aware Nazis and other extremists were gloaming onto the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I viewed that as something that unfortunately always happens, they did not define the 9/11 truth movement or were even a major feature for me. In that era I was much more worried about blowback from the Madeoff revelations. What he did perfectly fit into into anti Semitic tropes, but to my shock nothing happened.
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Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
ASPartOfMe
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I don't dispute they faced discrimination but they happily assimilated in white spaces and like other migrants from Europe,
I'll break it down for you. The United states in the 19th and early 20th century was a layered cake of heirarchy. Yes the Jews knew they weren't part of the icing on the cake but they certainly didn't go out of their way to help those on the bottom (I deliberately used the layered cake as it's white icing and chocolate on the bottom which is a metaphor).
There is a valid argument that migrants have their own struggles and they can't be expected to stick their neck out for the traditionally oppressed groups (e,g. black and native). I think most migrants really just want to mind their own business and focus on their family and community.
However, the perception of the black community is they (the Jews) allied with the whites. Put yourself in the shoes of a black person, it's not hard to make that leap when Jews are one of the most successful groups to exceed even the whites they live as neighbors with despite the US clearly being a white supremacist state.
It was different then. Identity politics was not a thing. Pretty much everybody wanted to Americanize, blacks also, it was harder for blacks to do it for obvious reasons. Also race was not considered a social construct but a matter of skin color. Blacks saw Jews as white because they have eyes. Once Jews gained success they thought of themselves as white because they looked in the mirror.
It was more then discrimination Jews faced. Particularly in the 1930s and 1940s Jews faced organized violence from the KKK, the Christian Front, and the German American Bund.
Jews were always one of the more liberal, radical, and pro civil rights voting blocs in America. Jewish names were always prominent when it came to liberal and radical leaders, and Jews were jailed, beaten
, and a couple died in aide of the civil rights movement. In the 60s it was a common for Jews to be called out for supporting Israel while protesting the Vietnam War.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
In the 1960s there was clearly two trains of thought though. Moderate civil rights as per MLK sought allies among whites/Jews. And more strident calls for black empowerment from the likes of Jesse Jackson and Malcolm X which were very anti-Jewish.
, and a couple died in aide of the civil rights movement. In the 60s it was a common for Jews to be called out for supporting Israel while protesting the Vietnam War.
Yes that's true, I was more looking at the perception of black Americans toward the Jewish community. Certainly by the 1960s black identity politics usurped the old integrationist philosophy. From that point black Americans started to notice while they were relegated to their ghettos, Jewish Asian, Middle eastern and Latin Americans were buying real estate, convenience stores, nail salons and liquor stores in black neighborhoods profiting of their misery while climbing the social ladder in white spaces. It's my understanding that Jarryd Kushner's father bought real estate in black neighborhoods and wealthy Jewish landlords had a bad reputation with black tenants.
While I don't agree with this 100%, invariably this fed the perception of black Americans that these communities were profiting of them but were not allies and if anything were adversaries.
It's funny to me the way our society focuses so much on the bigotry of white culture but when it comes down to the black culture we don't like to even like to acknowledge their issues with things like misogyny and homophobia.
And I personally blame a lot of that on the church culture in black communities.
I think black people generally lump Jews with whites. Can you blame them? Jews happily migrated to the US and (like all European and east Asian groups) participated in the institutions of Slavery and Jim Crow.
In an ironic twist the African Americans had to fight for their own civil rights on their own. Many of the victories they had in civil rights ironically benefitted Jews, hispanics and Asians who gratefully accepted the new laws and thanked black people by kicking them in the guts.
Total BS.
The bulk of American Jews came here through Ellis Island After the Civil War. Most American Jews are descended from peasants in places like Lithuania, who never owned slaves. And they were fleeing pogroms in Czarist Russia, and persecution in the Austro Hungarian Empire. East European Gentiles also moved here in the same era. And the core American population hated both East European Jews and East European Gentiles. And we became more antisemitic as a nation than before the Civil War. Jews were descriminated against in employment.
After WWII the Jews became major allies of the Black civil rights movement- because of their common interests with Blacks in fighting descrimination.
After WWII the Jews became major allies of the Black civil rights movement- because of their common interests with Blacks in fighting descrimination.
I know all this but you are completely missing the point.
The average black American probably thinks that Rabbi Heimi Rubestein in New York wrote a letter to his extended family telling them how great America is, how much money they can make and you can have your own personal black slave
I also suspect the narrative that every jew who stepped through Ellis Island was an oppressed refugee is a little bit of an exaggeration.
Roger and Hammerstein were Jews and captured (in their musicals) the spirit in which migrants to the US saw the prospect of liberty and freedom. It's naive to think they expected the worst
Another Jew wrote West Side story and the quintessential essense of the experience of arriving in America is captured in the lyrics of the song "I want to live in America"
All this hometown history is slippin' away
Shattered by a miracle age
I'm gonna roar through the night on a fantasy flight
As soon as I come of age
When the dream ignites, there's a flame so bright
Burnin' in a young man's heart
Get your hands on the wheel of some Detroit steel
You can hear the music start
I'm telling you I want to live in America
I want to live in America
Have you ever been down south of Chinatown
Seen the face of a refugee
The kids are alive, they've learned to survive
They're just like you and me
All their friends back home wonder what it's like alone
Living in the land of the free
It's another way of life, rev it up and take a ride
Realise your dreams
I'm telling you I want to live in America
I want to live in America
Doesn't sound like the rumination of an oppressed jew (BTW no mention of blacks)
ASPartOfMe
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,473
Location: Long Island, New York
All of this talk of black-Jewish alliances and splits during the 1960s misses a watershed event that occurred in 1968 in NYC, a teachers' strike of all things. No one event can explain such a complicated subject, but IMHO and the opinions of people much smarter than I any understanding of Black-Jewish tensions is incomplete without knowledge of this event. Involved were controversies that sound like they came out of Wrong Planet PPR arguments. Of course, racism and antisemitism, meritocracy, systematic racism, class, and identity politics.
New York City teachers' strike of 1968 - Wikipedia
Like any Wikipedia article, it only scratches the surface. Now 54 years later mostly forgotten by the general public even in New York it still is of interest in certain sectors. A quick Google search would reveal many retrospectives with different takes on the event. Some good retrospectives are linked in the article also.
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Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 10 Dec 2022, 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,473
Location: Long Island, New York
have fun
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
After WWII the Jews became major allies of the Black civil rights movement- because of their common interests with Blacks in fighting descrimination.
I know all this but you are completely missing the point.
The average black American probably thinks that Rabbi Heimi Rubestein in New York wrote a letter to his extended family telling them how great America is, how much money they can make and you can have your own personal black slave
I also suspect the narrative that every jew who stepped through Ellis Island was an oppressed refugee is a little bit of an exaggeration.
Roger and Hammerstein were Jews and captured (in their musicals) the spirit in which migrants to the US saw the prospect of liberty and freedom. It's naive to think they expected the worst
Another Jew wrote West Side story and the quintessential essense of the experience of arriving in America is captured in the lyrics of the song "I want to live in America"
All this hometown history is slippin' away
Shattered by a miracle age
I'm gonna roar through the night on a fantasy flight
As soon as I come of age
When the dream ignites, there's a flame so bright
Burnin' in a young man's heart
Get your hands on the wheel of some Detroit steel
You can hear the music start
I'm telling you I want to live in America
I want to live in America
Have you ever been down south of Chinatown
Seen the face of a refugee
The kids are alive, they've learned to survive
They're just like you and me
All their friends back home wonder what it's like alone
Living in the land of the free
It's another way of life, rev it up and take a ride
Realise your dreams
I'm telling you I want to live in America
I want to live in America
Doesn't sound like the rumination of an oppressed jew (BTW no mention of blacks)
Your drinking binge had obviously already started.
So...Jews fled to America to get freedom...so that proves that Jews did NOT flee to America to get freedom?
Dude...for your own sake you ought to tell the Mods to delete your whole above nonsensical post.
You shoulda slept it off before getting on the keyboard!
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