What type of people allow a 5 year old to transition!?

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Silence23
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28 Jan 2023, 4:45 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
This applies in the case of gender dysphoria too. In the postmodernist world the individual chooses reality and in order to accommodate that reality the transgender individual must lobby for changes in the public discourse and the general system of beliefs of the society.


Wouldn't it be easier to teach transsexuals to not make their own mental wellbeing depend on other people?

Instead they are told that it's possible that 8 billion people will see them as the gender they want to be seen as, and only a tiny minority of evil TERFs needs to be eradicated. Then their mental wellbeing will finally be fine.

Reality is, barely any man or woman will see them as the gender they want to be seen as. And subconsciously they will likely sense that. I mean there are those types who will say "yea you're the most beautiful woman on the planet", but that's like telling a girl with a disfigured face that she's beautiful. They say that because it's expected from them to say that. E.g. their peer group will shun them if they don't say the person is a beautiful woman. So they say "yea it's a woman", but they would never have sex with that person, only with XX chromosome women. Very hypocritical.

I'm good at sensing when someone doesn't want to hurt my emotions or something. Women particularly like to do that. It would seriously piss me off if they told me "yay you're a beautiful woman", while sensing that they say that to make me feel better.

I'm a schizoid. I find it unbearable for my mental wellbeing to depend on another person. I must find mental wellbeing in total solitude. That's basically why I've been asexual in the past 20 years.

The thought of my mental wellbeing depending on 8 billion people would be some kind of apocalyptic hell for me.

So why don't psychologists/therapists teach transsexuals to become independent from other people, instead of trying to change society (and annoying lots people by trying it) to make them feel better?

Someone doesn't consider you to be a woman? So what? Most humans are stupid anyway. Why would you care? As long as they leave you alone when asked to, what's the problem? Maybe you just need to grow some balls, instead of trying to change the thoughts of 8 billion people.


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Last edited by Silence23 on 28 Jan 2023, 4:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Dengashinobi
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28 Jan 2023, 4:49 pm

Quantum duck wrote:
I’m sorry dengashinobi, I didn’t ask for an explanation of your thoughts, and many of the terms you used have meanings that vary with user and audience. What I asked for was simple sentences laying out what you think “woke” people believe about transgender people that you find indefensible.

For example, I will make a simple sentence that shows something I think you believe about transgender people that is shown to be untrue by data:

MTF athletes will always perform better than cisgender female athletes.

Btw, yes, men will refuse to date transgender women. Men will refuse to date overweight women. Men will refuse to date super skinny women. Men will refuse to date tall women. Men will refuse to date women with kids. Men will refuse to date women of (insert race). Men will refuse to date women who make more money than they do. Men will refuse to date women who are not virgins. Men will refuse to date women who are virgins. Men will refus3 to date women who do not share their religious or political views.

All of those women are still women. fortunately there are many varieties of men available. Also women. Because you can be trans and gay.


I think that I explained what woke people believe about transgenderism that are indefensible. That's exactly what I did.

Yes trans women have consistently outcompeted biological women in sports.

All the other instances of why men won't date a woman are irrelevant to transgenderism. Only the instance where men won't date transgender women is relevant to transgenderism. And the reason is because heterosexual men won't date a biological man.



Last edited by Dengashinobi on 28 Jan 2023, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Jan 2023, 5:05 pm

Silence23 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
This applies in the case of gender dysphoria too. In the postmodernist world the individual chooses reality and in order to accommodate that reality the transgender individual must lobby for changes in the public discourse and the general system of beliefs of the society.


Wouldn't it be easier to teach transsexuals to not make their own mental wellbeing depend on other people?

Instead they are told that it's possible that 8 billion people will see them as the gender they want to be seen as, and only a tiny minority of evil TERFs needs to be eradicated. Then their mental wellbeing will finally be fine.

Reality is, barely any man or woman will see them as the gender they want to be seen as. And subconsciously they will likely sense that. I mean there are those types who will say "yea you're the most beautiful woman on the planet", but that's like telling a girl with a disfigured face that she's beautiful. They say that because it's expected from them to say that. E.g. their peer group will shun them if they don't say the person is a beautiful woman. So they say "yea it's a woman", but they would never have sex with that person, only with XX chromosome women.

I'm good at sensing when someone doesn't want to hurt my emotions or something. Women particularly like to do that. It would seriously piss me off if they told me "yay you're a beautiful woman", while sensing that they say that to make me feel better.

I'm a schizoid. I find it unbearable for my mental wellbeing to depend on another person. I must find mental wellbeing in total solitude. That's basically why I've been asexual in the past 20 years.

The thought of my mental wellbeing depending on 8 billion people would be some kind of apocalyptic hell for me.

So why don't psychologists/therapists teach transsexuals to become independent from other people, instead of trying to change society (and annoying lots people by trying it) to make them feel better?


First of all I wish I was schizoid. Life would have been so much easier. You are making a good point about teaching mental independence when it comes to dealing with society. Also the society being more accepting helps too. Though the woke activists go far beyond that causing an unnecessary backlash.



Quantum duck
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28 Jan 2023, 6:01 pm

It would be great if none of us needed our mental well-being to depend on other people - poof! Bullying would be a non-issue! Harassment would be a non-issue! Racism and sexism - non issues!

Turns out, humans are affected by what other humans do and say to them. Particularly humans with power over their lives.

Trans women do well in competition. They don’t always win.

There are transgender women who are married to xy men. I presume that they dated before marriage.

https://www.essence.com/lifestyle/my-ce ... nd-novian/

Also, Silence23, I’m guessing you know few or no transgender people that you are aware of, or only those who transitioned as adults and had minimal plastic surgery. My former students are good looking young men. If you saw them on the street, you would identify them as men. One has a gf who sees him as a man. One has a bf who sees him as a man. The one mtf student I had who started hormones before graduation looked distinctly feminine.



Quantum duck
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28 Jan 2023, 6:05 pm

Also dengashinobi, I still don’t actually understand what you think it is that these “woke” people believe. I actually want to. It would help me if you would say for example:

“Woke people believe xy people who have been surgically and chemically turned into women are women.” (I don’t find that indefensible. Are the women in the article I posted women or men in your mind?)

Woke people believe….



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28 Jan 2023, 6:26 pm

Quantum duck wrote:
Also dengashinobi, I still don’t actually understand what you think it is that these “woke” people believe. I actually want to. It would help me if you would say for example:

“Woke people believe xy people who have been surgically and chemically turned into women are women.” (I don’t find that indefensible. Are the women in the article I posted women or men in your mind?)

Woke people believe….


Lol I already told you what they believe. That if you feel a woman you are a woman. But then what is a woman but a social construct, right?

The "women" in the article are intersex people.



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28 Jan 2023, 6:29 pm

Quantum duck wrote:
It would be great if none of us needed our mental well-being to depend on other people - poof! Bullying would be a non-issue! Harassment would be a non-issue! Racism and sexism - non issues!

Turns out, humans are affected by what other humans do and say to them. Particularly humans with power over their lives.

Trans women do well in competition. They don’t always win.

There are transgender women who are married to xy men. I presume that they dated before marriage.

https://www.essence.com/lifestyle/my-ce ... nd-novian/

Also, Silence23, I’m guessing you know few or no transgender people that you are aware of, or only those who transitioned as adults and had minimal plastic surgery. My former students are good looking young men. If you saw them on the street, you would identify them as men. One has a gf who sees him as a man. One has a bf who sees him as a man. The one mtf student I had who started hormones before graduation looked distinctly feminine.


What do you teach?



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28 Jan 2023, 6:53 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
I read your references and what struck me in the first reference you posted is this, "All of the studies were judged to be at moderate to high risk of bias." It seems that the people themselves who did the study didn't have much faith in it.

As Mikah notes, there is always a risk of bias when people drop out of trials. But this is still representative of the scientific consensus in a way that

Quote:
You said that my references are cherry picked and that yours are not. And the reason yours are not is because yours are meta-analysis studies. Why, can't you cherry pick meta-analysis studies too?

I thought you'd read them? They set out their methodologies - do you think their study selection was inadequate?

These are studies which review the literature as a whole. They are therefore a representation of what the literature as a whole shows, whereas one cherry-picked study is not.

I'd also point you towards trans healthcare standards, for example:
https://wpath.org/publications/soc
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default- ... 84743f94_4
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... -protocol/

WPATH, RCPsych (and the other organisations signing on that line), and the NHS were all recommending gender-affirming care in 2013. You'll be able to find earlier reports for yourself if you like.

So, no, this isn't the result of ideologues bending the facts - this has been the established best practice for decades, and you just think it has changed because you've only just got angry about it. Again - it isn't the whole medical profession biased against you.
Quote:
Also I wouldn't call my sources cherry picking exactly. Those are studies of data from the public health services of Sweden, a country with quite a rubust public health care system. It's number of subjects is also quite an expansive one. You will hardly find any better data on the subject.

You still picked the one study that supports your views, rather than the wealth of studies and expert opinions that do not. That's the height of cherry-picking.

Quote:
I also insist with my claim (since you did not disproove it) that the situation regarding this topic in the medical community was not the same as it is now. That Swedish research I mentioned used to be a very influential one, and people back then where discussing about approaches to gender dysphoria from that perspective.

Now you're not even trying to hide it. Your approach here is not concerned with the truth, only with pushing gender ideology. As a scientist, I don't really care what you think - I'm concerned with the facts. See the earlier reports from WPATH, the NHS, and Royal College of Psychiatrists if you want to know what clinicians were thinking in the past.

Quote:
But of course not every anonymous to the public researcher enjoys the popularity and support that Chappelle does. Therefore the best way to keep your carear as a researcher is to avoid research on gender dysphoria all together. The only research that is currently being done is that kind that gets a pass from activists

This is laughably untrue and shows a complete lack of familiarity with the literature.

There are plenty of bigots offering up their uninformed opinions on this subject in the literature. There are even people publishing papers that people don't like. There are always a range of views! But there is, nonetheless, a broad consensus that gender is not the same as sex, that trans people exist, that there are a large number of gender identities, and that trans-affirming healthcare is effective.

And of course it isn't just "the trans activists" who apply pressure. For every trans person (1% of the population), there are plenty of TERFs screeching about "cis rights", religious people screeching about "offences against god", and no shortage of other variants of transphobes. In general, transphobes tend to be better placed - there are no shortage of them working in media organisation, and no trans person has anything close to the profile and influence of JK Rowling.
Quote:
As for the gender thing, here we go again with the magical cultic newspeak. Absolute non sense.

You're the one who said there is only one gender. That is plainly untrue - there are many genders. The science is pretty clear on this. If you meet another person, even if we take a categorical approach to gender, there is a greater than 50% chance that they will have a different gender to you.

Again, confirmation bias is tough. I completely understand that you have some deep-seated views, and that changing them when they turn out to be wrong is painful - physically painful. But you are wrong here. Different people have different genders to you. Also, as gender is largely internal and subjective, if someone tells you that they have a different gender to you then you can't prove them wrong. All you can do is insist that there is only one gender, which doesn't get you very far.



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28 Jan 2023, 7:16 pm

Ah, well, then I would be slightly right of “woke”. I would say:

If you think you are a woman, and you discuss the reasons for those feelings and how and when you came to this conclusion and what effect it is having on your life, and you examine and reject or fail at possible mental strategies for accepting your genetic gender and you live as a woman for awhile, and you still think you are a woman, then you are a woman, and the best thing we can do for you is fix your body so that people can see that you are a woman.

We can do face transplants and arm transplants. People are screened psychologically before being given these transplants because they are significant bodily changes and can be mentally disorienting. I think the screening process for gender dysmorphia should be similarly thorough.

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28 Jan 2023, 9:33 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
Quantum duck wrote:
Also dengashinobi, I still don’t actually understand what you think it is that these “woke” people believe. I actually want to. It would help me if you would say for example:

“Woke people believe xy people who have been surgically and chemically turned into women are women.” (I don’t find that indefensible. Are the women in the article I posted women or men in your mind?)

Woke people believe….


Lol I already told you what they believe. That if you feel a woman you are a woman. But then what is a woman but a social construct, right?

The "women" in the article are intersex people.


Women who have XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity pretty much always both identify and are assumed to be XX cisgender women.

Because sex and sex chromosomes apparently aren't quite binary either, almost like people who insist the three are synonymous and strictly binary are completely wrong.


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29 Jan 2023, 2:51 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
I read your references and what struck me in the first reference you posted is this, "All of the studies were judged to be at moderate to high risk of bias." It seems that the people themselves who did the study didn't have much faith in it.

As Mikah notes, there is always a risk of bias when people drop out of trials. But this is still representative of the scientific consensus in a way that

Quote:
You said that my references are cherry picked and that yours are not. And the reason yours are not is because yours are meta-analysis studies. Why, can't you cherry pick meta-analysis studies too?

I thought you'd read them? They set out their methodologies - do you think their study selection was inadequate?

These are studies which review the literature as a whole. They are therefore a representation of what the literature as a whole shows, whereas one cherry-picked study is not.

I'd also point you towards trans healthcare standards, for example:
https://wpath.org/publications/soc
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default- ... 84743f94_4
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... -protocol/

WPATH, RCPsych (and the other organisations signing on that line), and the NHS were all recommending gender-affirming care in 2013. You'll be able to find earlier reports for yourself if you like.

So, no, this isn't the result of ideologues bending the facts - this has been the established best practice for decades, and you just think it has changed because you've only just got angry about it. Again - it isn't the whole medical profession biased against you.
Quote:
Also I wouldn't call my sources cherry picking exactly. Those are studies of data from the public health services of Sweden, a country with quite a rubust public health care system. It's number of subjects is also quite an expansive one. You will hardly find any better data on the subject.

You still picked the one study that supports your views, rather than the wealth of studies and expert opinions that do not. That's the height of cherry-picking.

Quote:
I also insist with my claim (since you did not disproove it) that the situation regarding this topic in the medical community was not the same as it is now. That Swedish research I mentioned used to be a very influential one, and people back then where discussing about approaches to gender dysphoria from that perspective.

Now you're not even trying to hide it. Your approach here is not concerned with the truth, only with pushing gender ideology. As a scientist, I don't really care what you think - I'm concerned with the facts. See the earlier reports from WPATH, the NHS, and Royal College of Psychiatrists if you want to know what clinicians were thinking in the past.

Quote:
But of course not every anonymous to the public researcher enjoys the popularity and support that Chappelle does. Therefore the best way to keep your carear as a researcher is to avoid research on gender dysphoria all together. The only research that is currently being done is that kind that gets a pass from activists

This is laughably untrue and shows a complete lack of familiarity with the literature.

There are plenty of bigots offering up their uninformed opinions on this subject in the literature. There are even people publishing papers that people don't like. There are always a range of views! But there is, nonetheless, a broad consensus that gender is not the same as sex, that trans people exist, that there are a large number of gender identities, and that trans-affirming healthcare is effective.

And of course it isn't just "the trans activists" who apply pressure. For every trans person (1% of the population), there are plenty of TERFs screeching about "cis rights", religious people screeching about "offences against god", and no shortage of other variants of transphobes. In general, transphobes tend to be better placed - there are no shortage of them working in media organisation, and no trans person has anything close to the profile and influence of JK Rowling.
Quote:
As for the gender thing, here we go again with the magical cultic newspeak. Absolute non sense.

You're the one who said there is only one gender. That is plainly untrue - there are many genders. The science is pretty clear on this. If you meet another person, even if we take a categorical approach to gender, there is a greater than 50% chance that they will have a different gender to you.

Again, confirmation bias is tough. I completely understand that you have some deep-seated views, and that changing them when they turn out to be wrong is painful - physically painful. But you are wrong here. Different people have different genders to you. Also, as gender is largely internal and subjective, if someone tells you that they have a different gender to you then you can't prove them wrong. All you can do is insist that there is only one gender, which doesn't get you very far.


You seem emotionally much more invested in this topic than I am. To me gender dysphoria is just a rare disease. I sympathise with those people and I hope adequate treatment will be developed.

I will not go through the data again since as someone else wrote here, life is too short. What I consistently see is that the science over the effects of affirmative body changes is uncertain and the quality of those studies that show it to be beneficial are biased, as the researchers who did the research you posted said. I know what meta-analysis is and the researchers who do it can very well cherry pick and they can draw all sorts of conclusions as they like. The only ones who get a pass are those who's research yield's the results woke trans activists want. Otherwise they get shut down. No proper research is being currently done it the field.

You seem to know what confirmation bias means, cool. That doesn't apply to you of course.

You are talking about gender after offering research on studies done on the topic of transitioning. This is like offering scientific data about climate change but also believing the earth is flat. The idea of multiple genders is just pure lunacy. Supposedly there is even e field on that, "Gender studies". The lunacy has gone so far as to actually develop whole disciplines. But apparently there are schools which teach creationism so nothing new.



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29 Jan 2023, 2:53 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
Quantum duck wrote:
Also dengashinobi, I still don’t actually understand what you think it is that these “woke” people believe. I actually want to. It would help me if you would say for example:

“Woke people believe xy people who have been surgically and chemically turned into women are women.” (I don’t find that indefensible. Are the women in the article I posted women or men in your mind?)

Woke people believe….


Lol I already told you what they believe. That if you feel a woman you are a woman. But then what is a woman but a social construct, right?

The "women" in the article are intersex people.


Women who have XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity pretty much always both identify and are assumed to be XX cisgender women.

Because sex and sex chromosomes apparently aren't quite binary either, almost like people who insist the three are synonymous and strictly binary are completely wrong.


These are genetic and developmental anomalies. They don't consist a gender or genders.



Quantum duck
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29 Jan 2023, 7:55 am

Dengashinobi,

Now you have confused me.

You have led me to believe that you believe there are only two genders
Men
And
Women

And that these genders can be accurately assigned at birth.

(Since we cannot speak with the person at birth we must be assigning these genders based on physiology or genetics or both)

But now you have said the people in the study are intersex people. Was I wrong about your belief in two genders? Is that a third gender? And if not, what is their gender and how do we know?

You say these are abnormalities. Do people with abnormalitiesnot have gender? Is that not one of the proposed additional states of gender?



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29 Jan 2023, 9:47 am

Dengashinobi wrote:

You are talking about gender after offering research on studies done on the topic of transitioning. This is like offering scientific data about climate change but also believing the earth is flat. The idea of multiple genders is just pure lunacy. Supposedly there is even e field on that, "Gender studies". The lunacy has gone so far as to actually develop whole disciplines. But apparently there are schools which teach creationism so nothing new.

I can prove the Earth is round.

I can prove that there is more than one gender.

Please prove that this is "pure lunacy", otherwise you're just asserting a groundless opinion.



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29 Jan 2023, 11:09 am

The vast majority of men are XY; the vast majority of women are XX.

If 99% of people’s sex chromosomes correspond to the birth sex, that would leave about 80 million people whose sex chromosomes do not correspond to their birth sex—quite a large number.



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29 Jan 2023, 3:29 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:

You are talking about gender after offering research on studies done on the topic of transitioning. This is like offering scientific data about climate change but also believing the earth is flat. The idea of multiple genders is just pure lunacy. Supposedly there is even e field on that, "Gender studies". The lunacy has gone so far as to actually develop whole disciplines. But apparently there are schools which teach creationism so nothing new.

I can prove the Earth is round.

I can prove that there is more than one gender.

Please prove that this is "pure lunacy", otherwise you're just asserting a groundless opinion.


I'm not the one to assert anything. You are the one that claims that somehow magically there are more than one genders. You are the one who must prove it. Otherwise I can just dismiss it.