What type of people allow a 5 year old to transition!?

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magz
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31 Jan 2023, 5:58 am

But how do you tell if "trying to mimick sexually attractive to males physical traits" isn't a cultural trend as well? How about burkas and niquabs of other cultures? Are they the same or the opposite?
And how do you tell if particular traits aren't also considered attractive or not, based on cultural assumptions rather than something objective? Look at the history of body shapes in art. Thin, obese, muscular - they change with cultural assumptions about desirability.

I wear neither high heels nor makeup. Am I not a woman?


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Dengashinobi
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31 Jan 2023, 6:22 am

magz wrote:
But how do you tell if "trying to mimick sexually attractive to males physical traits" isn't a cultural trend as well? How about burkas and niquabs of other cultures? Are they the same or the opposite?
And how do you tell if particular traits aren't also considered attractive or not, based on cultural assumptions rather than something objective? Look at the history of body shapes in art. Thin, obese, muscular - they change with cultural assumptions about desirability.

I wear neither high heels nor makeup. Am I not a woman?


You are a woman obviously. It's not dress that makes a woman or a man. It's biology.

But we were discussing about make up and apparently there are seasons for it. Mane different cultures have different standards of beauty. There was a study that showed how during times of scarce food, men tend to find slightly chubbyer women more attractive, societies with easy access to food tend to find more attractive women at optimal fitness, not skinny but what we consider attractive today in the West.



magz
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31 Jan 2023, 6:23 am

So you admit standards of beauty/attractiveness are cultural.


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Dengashinobi
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31 Jan 2023, 6:36 am

magz wrote:
So you admit standards of beauty/attractiveness are cultural.


That's a fact. What I also believe is that there can be biological underpinnings to those differences.



magz
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31 Jan 2023, 6:56 am

If attractiveness standards are culture-dependent, then we have at least one part of culture that differentiates between men and women, don't we?
Though, there are more. In the West, computer programming is considered a masculine career - but in South Asia, indoor professions are considered suitable for women, along with computer programming.
If we can find two cultures that have it different, we can safely assume it is cultural.

So, there is a cultural layer of feminity and masculinity, right?


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Joe90
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31 Jan 2023, 7:09 am

Can I just butt in this ongoing debate, as I've just had another thought. Some religions have very strict gender rules and expectancies. Would Non-Binary people be offended by those religions?

It's just a question.


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magz
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31 Jan 2023, 7:12 am

Joe90 wrote:
Can I just butt in this ongoing debate, as I've just had another thought. Some religions have very strict gender rules and expectancies. Would Non-Binary people be offended by those religions?

It's just a question.
I know a number of people who don't self-identify as non-binary nor trans but who still despise strict gender rules in religious contexts.

The topic of "being offended by a religion" is more complex and I learn a lot when talking to my RL friend who grew up as an atheist in overwhelmingly Catholic Poland of the 1990s. I believe it deserves a separate thread.


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kraftiekortie
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31 Jan 2023, 7:31 am

I’m not “offended” by Islam itself.

I’m offended by sects like the Taliban, who seek to deny women the benefit of education, and of being viable people in general.

Similar to how some Christian sects operate.



magz
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31 Jan 2023, 7:45 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m not “offended” by Islam itself.

I’m offended by sects like the Taliban, who seek to deny women the benefit of education, and of being viable people in general.

Similar to how some Christian sects operate.

The examples I had in mind were much milder.
Like, a religious friend getting annoyed after a conference "being a man* in the Church", complaining that his sexual organs do not determine what kind of person he is and how to be a good follower of Christ.
Things like that. I encounter it every now and then in my Catholic Poland.

Attitude like "my sexual organs don't determine what kind of person I am" is quite common where I live.

________
*"mężczyzna" - it means "man" as "male"


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31 Jan 2023, 8:12 am

I grew up in a religion that had rigid views of gender roles and clearcut, separate expectations for men and women.

Yes, it offends me. I don’t think that religion should be above scrutiny. Nothing should be.


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31 Jan 2023, 8:19 am

Joe90 wrote:
Can I just butt in this ongoing debate, as I've just had another thought. Some religions have very strict gender rules and expectancies. Would Non-Binary people be offended by those religions?

It's just a question.


In my case, no.
I don't cast my views on others or expect all people to think and feel like I do.
I wouldn't be keen on a religion that thinks all people should be NB, either.
I respect diversity of thought.

If a religion doesn't appeal to me for any reason I'll just move along and keep being me.



The_Walrus
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31 Jan 2023, 8:47 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
OK. I am a man. That's one gender. I used to be a boy. That's two genders. Women and girls exist. That's four genders. And people who don't fit into these categories also exist, and have done since time immemorial [1] [2] [3].

This isn't magic - it's an observed fact. There are many more genders than just one. "As many as there are people" is probably the most accurate approach, but not necessarily a useful one.


You didn't explain anything yourself. You are just postulating that there are as many genders as they are individuals. But what exactly is a gender as opposed to sex as a woke idiom (because remember, gender and sex are two words that explain the same thing in English). You only posted three links and expect me to do the hard work of reading them and analise them without any contribution by you. Can you explain why gender is different from sex and why that is a fact in your own words?

Other people have already elucidated the difference between gender and sex. They may be conflated in casual use, but most people are now familiar with several distinctions between the two.

It is clear that, however you want to attempt to describe sex and/or gender in humans, there are multiple axes on which you can do so:

- Chromosomes
- Gametes
- Gonads
- Genitals
- Hormones
- Secondary sexual characteristics
- neurology
- legal
- roles, behaviours, and expression
- identity

Generally the word “sex” refers to the first six, which do not always align, while the word “gender” refers to the latter two, which also do not always align, either with each other or with sex. In between we have legal definitions, and also neurology, which is the least studied of the set and where science is most tentative, but indications are that people whose “gender” doesn’t align with their “sex” have a brain which is more indicative of members of the opposite sex, or which is hard to identify a sex for.

What is not in doubt is that there is a significant portion of the population who have an identity which does not match their sex. There is also a small but significant portion which doesn’t identify with either binary sex, and most of them are not intersex (disregarding neurology for the moment).

We also know that most humans have a strong gender identity which is separate from (but often aligns with) both how they were raised and their genitals and gonads. We know this from cases like David Reimer, as well as intersex people and trans people.

In all cultures, there is more than one gender. In many cultures, there has long been more than a binary gender (or double binary age-gender) system - this was what most of my links were illustrating, so see them if you want a citation. In the modern West, while we still have a gender binary in many practical senses, we have come to acknowledge that this is an imperfect model of the reality of human gender.
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The number of intersex people is significantly higher than that, because most intersex people have XX or XY chromosomes but are intersex for other reasons, like androgen insensitivity or PCOS (sex is of course another thing that exists along a spectrum - for example, testosterone levels, sperm counts, height, and body fat percentage are all things that vary even within cis men).


Not according to Wikipedia.

You’ll have to explain. What is “not according to Wikipedia”?



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31 Jan 2023, 8:52 am

magz wrote:
If attractiveness standards are culture-dependent, then we have at least one part of culture that differentiates between men and women, don't we?
Though, there are more. In the West, computer programming is considered a masculine career - but in South Asia, indoor professions are considered suitable for women, along with computer programming.
If we can find two cultures that have it different, we can safely assume it is cultural.

So, there is a cultural layer of feminity and masculinity, isn't it?


There are cultural variations but they can be explained either by biology or by the ways a society adapts those biological inclinations. For example, in the muslim world female attractiveness in public is avoided al together by covering the body, this is also an adaptation to our biology. I don't know much about south Asian women's professional patterns. About the IT field being dominated by men, there are well documented studies that explain biological differences in the male and female psychology. For example males are more interested in things and females are more interested in people.



magz
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31 Jan 2023, 10:02 am

Is a woman interested in things not a woman?
Is a man interested in people not a man?
Have these "well documented studies" been tested against the WEIRD bias?


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Dengashinobi
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31 Jan 2023, 10:25 am

magz wrote:
Is a woman interested in things not a woman?
Is a man interested in people not a man?
Have these "well documented studies" been tested against the WEIRD bias?


There are flactuations within each sex, this is an assessment on average. Of course you will find some men more interested in people than some women and some women more interested in things than some men. I'm talking about the general inclination of each sex, which would explain the cultural landscape of the difference in choice of profession for example. That would explain why men are more underepresented in some field's and why women are underepresented in other fields. There is a study that shows how in countries with a high standard of living, like Sweden, a country with a high standard of living and with a culture predisposed towards gender equality, this separation of choice of profession between the sexes was even more pronounced than in poorer countries with a more patriarcal culture. If economic stressors and societal stereotypes are diminished, people are more prone to do what they feel good about. And apparently the data shows men's and women's diference in choice of ocuppation becomes even sharper in such environments.



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31 Jan 2023, 10:29 am

Joe90 wrote:
Respect is when I say my pets are my own children and people accept it and don't judge me against it, and are just like"aww, cute" or whatever.

Political correctness is when I demand everyone to never say the word "pets" when talking about my rats and that they (even the vet) must say "my children" instead otherwise I'll be offended and you'll be a bigoted as*hole.

That's the difference between respect and political correctness. It can sometimes mean the same thing in some contexts but in most cases they are like apples and oranges; both fruit but two different fruits.


I'm no expert but I don't think "political correctness" applies in your example about your rats. In my understanding, PC means that people try very hard not to offend anyone by race, sex, gender, ability, etc., by not using language that might marginalise anyone or any vulnerable sector of society worldwide.

The word "political" refers to the populace, or people in groups.

For your example to be PC you'd have to be insisting that all people refer to all rats worldwide as being your children, but even then it's the rats' feelings you're concerned about (or your own), as opposed to the greater good of society.

I'm not trying to be critical of you or your post but I thought I'd make that distinction since I'm a pedant.

:D