Page 1 of 5 [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,105
Location: Llareggub

02 Feb 2023, 6:06 pm

Matthew 19:

"there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

Who exactly were the eunuchs who had made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake?


_________________
May you be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah


TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,142
Location: Hell

02 Feb 2023, 6:10 pm

I think when I was a believer I took that scripture to mean that some people chose/choose to stay celibate to focus on spiritual pursuits (like annoying other people by preaching - that sort of thing) rather than be literal eunuchs.

Of course, elsewhere the Bible says that if body parts are making you stumble cut them off, so….


_________________
“We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake...by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us even in our soundest sleep.”
Walden


Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,105
Location: Llareggub

02 Feb 2023, 7:30 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
I think when I was a believer I took that scripture to mean that some people chose/choose to stay celibate to focus on spiritual pursuits (like annoying other people by preaching - that sort of thing) rather than be literal eunuchs..


That's how some Christians presently choose to interpret the passage. Christian churches had literal eunuch choirs (the castrati) until the beginning of the 20th century. In Matthew 19, Jesus is addressing his Jewish disciples. Deuteronomy 23 says

Quote:
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.


In the Ancient Near East, there were eunuchs in palaces. King Herod had a few eunuchs. But, it doesn't seem that making one's self a eunuch would have been encouraged among Jews. At least I don't think that Jews ever had any eunuch choirs.


_________________
May you be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah


PenPen
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2022
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 71

02 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm

Pretty sure Jesus was talking metaphorically, though he wouldn't be against literally if a person had no other way to resist temptation. (Marital) sex is not a sin in Christianity, but the holiest of people abstain from the flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2, 32-34
"Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband." " An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided."



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,255
Location: Texas

02 Feb 2023, 11:17 pm

Honey69 wrote:
Matthew 19:

"there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

Who exactly were the eunuchs who had made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake?

I believe eunuchs in that verse refers to people who decide to be celibate for the rest of their lives because they have the gift of celibacy and can resist sexual temptation better the most other men.They would focus their lives on Christian pursuits as a single person rather than having a wife and kids.



Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,105
Location: Llareggub

03 Feb 2023, 1:32 am

PenPen wrote:
Pretty sure Jesus was talking metaphorically, though he wouldn't be against literally if a person had no other way to resist temptation. (Marital) sex is not a sin in Christianity, but the holiest of people abstain from the flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2, 32-34
"Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband." " An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided."


That's Paul. He was an asexual. And, he came after Jesus. Although, granted, Paul's letters were composed prior to the gospels. Still, if the record of Jesus' statement is correct, then he wouldn't have been talking about Christians.


_________________
May you be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah


Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,105
Location: Llareggub

03 Feb 2023, 1:35 am

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
Matthew 19:

"there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

Who exactly were the eunuchs who had made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake?

I believe eunuchs in that verse refers to people who decide to be celibate for the rest of their lives because they have the gift of celibacy and can resist sexual temptation better the most other men.They would focus their lives on Christian pursuits as a single person rather than having a wife and kids.


You may believe what you wish. Jesus uses the past tense, " there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake." He wouldn't have been talking about Christians and Christian pursuits. Christianity was not a religion at that point.


_________________
May you be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah


MuddRM
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 2 Sep 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 437
Location: Beautiful(?) West Manchester Township, PA

03 Feb 2023, 5:06 am

Speaking of eunuchs, there’s the old computer science joke:

Unix (in all of its forms): it’ enough to make you into one! :P :twisted: :mrgreen:



klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,888
Location: Cardiff, Wales

03 Feb 2023, 5:11 am

I used to take it literally because it is worded strongly,as are the verses where he tells Christians to cut off their body parts that are leading them to hell.

Now I see them as something that is sarcastic, as in he is saying that castration is for people trying to get to heaven by their own righteousness. In the later gospel of John he says just believe in him to be saved.

It's a shame that there is no hint of it being sarcastic at all because it has caused people to harm themselves.



TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,142
Location: Hell

03 Feb 2023, 6:50 am

Honey69 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I think when I was a believer I took that scripture to mean that some people chose/choose to stay celibate to focus on spiritual pursuits (like annoying other people by preaching - that sort of thing) rather than be literal eunuchs..


That's how some Christians presently choose to interpret the passage. Christian churches had literal eunuch choirs (the castrati) until the beginning of the 20th century. In Matthew 19, Jesus is addressing his Jewish disciples. Deuteronomy 23 says

Quote:
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.


In the Ancient Near East, there were eunuchs in palaces. King Herod had a few eunuchs. But, it doesn't seem that making one's self a eunuch would have been encouraged among Jews. At least I don't think that Jews ever had any eunuch choirs.


I heard an old recording of a castrato recently because I’m taking a course on classical music.

It’s appalling that the Church thought that castration was a good idea for such a long time and until so recently, historically speaking.


_________________
“We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake...by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us even in our soundest sleep.”
Walden


Dengashinobi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2022
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 598

03 Feb 2023, 7:41 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I think when I was a believer I took that scripture to mean that some people chose/choose to stay celibate to focus on spiritual pursuits (like annoying other people by preaching - that sort of thing) rather than be literal eunuchs..


That's how some Christians presently choose to interpret the passage. Christian churches had literal eunuch choirs (the castrati) until the beginning of the 20th century. In Matthew 19, Jesus is addressing his Jewish disciples. Deuteronomy 23 says

Quote:
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.


In the Ancient Near East, there were eunuchs in palaces. King Herod had a few eunuchs. But, it doesn't seem that making one's self a eunuch would have been encouraged among Jews. At least I don't think that Jews ever had any eunuch choirs.


I heard an old recording of a castrato recently because I’m taking a course on classical music.

It’s appalling that the Church thought that castration was a good idea for such a long time and until so recently, historically speaking.


Yeap, the case of castrati is very odd indeed.



Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,105
Location: Llareggub

03 Feb 2023, 11:09 am

klanka wrote:
I used to take it literally because it is worded strongly,as are the verses where he tells Christians to cut off their body parts that are leading them to hell.

Now I see them as something that is sarcastic, as in he is saying that castration is for people trying to get to heaven by their own righteousness. In the later gospel of John he says just believe in him to be saved.

It's a shame that there is no hint of it being sarcastic at all because it has caused people to harm themselves.


I don't think that Jesus is telling people that they should necessarily cut off their balls. He says

"...there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

He knows of people who already made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

I think that Jesus is most likely referring to the galli--eunuch priests of the Phrygian goddess Cybele.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galli

Possibly sarcastically. In the ancient near east, and in the Roman empire, people would have known of them.

On the other hand, if Jesus is talking metaphorically about celibacy, then he may have been referring to the Essenes.


_________________
May you be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

03 Feb 2023, 11:21 am

I don't feel people thought it necessary to be a eunuch in order to be celibate.

Or "felt" like a eunuch owing to celibacy.

The operation to become a eunuch was rather a risky procedure. And, as is true now, very few people were "born" being eunuchs.



klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,888
Location: Cardiff, Wales

03 Feb 2023, 11:23 am

I think you misunderstood, I don't think he's telling people to literally castrate themselves. But he is... sarcastically.. which is why Christians have actually done it: like origen... because they didn't understand the sarcasm.

The kingdom of heaven is the Christian afterlife or referring to the Christian community here on earth so it can't be referring to followers of Cybele, as that is a non-Christian god.

There was a Christian sect that practiced castration literally. Can't remember what they were called at the moment.

Most Christians understand the sarcasm or ignore that verse or explain it away as celibacy.
Later in the Bible it says there were great multitudes in heaven so castrating oneself cannot be a barrier for entry.



TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,142
Location: Hell

03 Feb 2023, 1:00 pm

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.


_________________
“We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake...by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us even in our soundest sleep.”
Walden


klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,888
Location: Cardiff, Wales

03 Feb 2023, 1:09 pm

It is confusing.