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DuckHairback
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07 Feb 2023, 7:27 am

For me, before I had a child, the concept was purely abstract. Of course it was. You can imagine 'a child' and you might imagine the shape of a baby, crying, demanding your time and effort, sucking away your freedom. But I couldn't imagine my child. It's very hard to explain. I'll try a comparison for those who don't have kids.

You know how people can get really angry about, let's say right-wing gun nuts or 'woke' lefties. Whatever, whatever prejudice gets you worked up, whatever type of person you think you can't stand. When you think about that, you're probably not thinking about an actual person, you're thinking about a 2D collection of notions that upset you and you're projecting that onto a group of people that you think exist. But if you're put into a room with just one person who might have some of those beliefs, you generally find that that one person is actually okay, you can have a conversation with them, you might be able to disagree amicably. They have nuances and subtleties. They've stopped being abstract and become a real person and we're much more tolerant towards real people than we are towards these abstract constructions we invent, or are sold.

So imagine that, 'a child' (abstract and 2D and just a bundle of demands and obligations) becomes 'your child' (an actual 3D person that's just been placed in your hands) and then add in a booster. Love is the booster and I think it's probably different for everybody how much love they feel and how quickly they start to feel it. But don't think you know beforehand, you can be surprised.

That's the best I can describe the experience. My experience anyway. For me it happened instantly. I went from reluctant father of an abstract notion to completely in love with a real person in a second. I knew immediately that I had to look after this being, that she was more important than I was and that I would do anything I needed to do to make sure she was okay. Not an obligation, you understand. I suddenly wanted to do it.

To be clear, ALL of my concerns about fatherhood were valid and borne out by experience. Children are a massive drain on your free time, your emotional state and your personal finances. There are additional negatives that I never even imagined. The sense of vulnerability you have around your own child - the terror that anything bad might happen to them. The horror as you see the worst parts of your own personality reflected back at you. Raising a child isn't a thankless task, but the thanks don't come in the way you might like or when you think you deserve them.

And I wouldn't do it for an abstract 'child'. No one would. But I'll do it gladly for my child.

And I'm surprised to find out that I'm good at it, despite my concerns. I agree with ToughDiamond that very little of it is rational and it's hard to understand if you haven't done it.

I can't really tell you why anyone would want to have a child. Because I didn't either, but I guess they have some inkling, or find it easier to trust the stories of people like me who have done it and discovered that its enriching and rewarding in ways you might not expect, or even think you want.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Feb 2023, 7:46 am

There are times when I think I would have been a decent father, despite my misgivings.

I would have made mistakes, and I probably would have learned from them.

I hope, though, that the mistakes I would have made wouldn’t have hurt the child at all (no, I certainly wouldn’t have physically abused the child!). I would hope, say, that I would be able to watch a toddler sufficiently, because I’m easily distracted.



auntblabby
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07 Feb 2023, 7:47 am

above all, the thought that i may have in even the smallest way harmed my flesh and blood or even somebody else's flesh and blood, prevents me from ever considering parenthood. children are so vulnerable.



DuckHairback
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07 Feb 2023, 8:06 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are times when I think I would have been a decent father, despite my misgivings.


Kraftie you seem considerate, thoughtful, calm and kind. I'm sure you'd have done just fine.

I've hurt my child through absent-mindedness. I think most parents have at some point. It's horrible and you feel guilty for ever. I have an image of my daughter's face, contorted in agony as she discovers the pain of having her finger closed in a car door, seared into my brain. Her finger went black, the nail fell off. Then it healed and new nail grew.

Children are vulnerable, but they're also tough as nails and bounce back from physical injury in ways we adults don't.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Feb 2023, 8:16 am

Thank you.

I have the affliction of absentmindedness, too.

I absolutely agree that children, often, are very resilient beings who frequently recover fast from physical and emotional trauma.

But, still, I wouldn’t have wanted my failings to force a child to test the above hypothesis.

You’ve done well, my friend.



Quantum duck
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07 Feb 2023, 8:31 am

Lol, kraftiekortie, my dad ran over my foot with the car.

One of my students came in on crutches last month and I asked what happened.

Kid “my dad ran over my foot with the car.”

Me “ouch! I remember when my dad did that. It really hurts.”

Kid “what?! Is that a dad thing?”



kraftiekortie
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07 Feb 2023, 8:34 am

:D

Yep....kids do "say the darndest things," and I'm glad they do! Gives me hope.



DuckHairback
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07 Feb 2023, 8:56 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

I absolutely agree that children, often, are very resilient beings who frequently recover fast from physical and emotional trauma.

But, still, I wouldn’t have wanted my failings to force a child to test the above hypothesis.


I'm sure you got my point, but to clarify, I'm not saying its okay to be absent minded and hurt kids because they're reslient and self-healing! More that everyone is absent-minded sometimes and I'd be surprised if many kids make it through childhood without some physical damage from a parent's moment of distractedness.

Kids are generally good at keeping your attention present in the moment - they pretty much demand it.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Feb 2023, 9:01 am

I did say I wouldn't have wanted to test my hypothesis :wink:

But I do get your point.



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07 Feb 2023, 3:50 pm

I must admit that I have a tendency to try to rationalise things that may go beyond rationality. There are some interesting answers in this thread.

Personally, when I was a teenager, my sister confided in me that it would be up to me to provide grandchildren for our parents. It was a completely unprompted conversation that took me by surprise.

My family suspected that I might be gay. Back when I was fourteen, my mum bluntly asked me and I not so smoothly changed the topic. :lol:

After that, my family started to cover the bases by saying "your future husband or wife" when talking about such things.

I know my friend's parents were immediately disappointed when he came out and assumed he wasn't going to have children. Yet, mine were quick to say that it didn't matter how I have kids and that they don't have to be biologically related.

My dad once threw a chocolate bar at me and said he hopes I think of him fondly after he dies. Just... out of nowhere. He's remarked before on walks about how he hopes I tell future generations about him.

So, I understand it from a meeting expectations point of view. As a legacy of sorts. Yet I've never really... felt a drive to do so.

Things are a bit different now that my sister has since changed her stance and is now considering having children. Not as a definite, but as a possibility.

When I think about having kids, I think about being a mentor to a preteen or something. That's what I picture. I'm not sure I'm cut out for a baby. Teenagers are pretty daunting as well.

I remember on the last date I went on, there was a screaming child and my date joked that if it was her's she'd leave it behind. There was a silence followed by abrupt laughter. "Remind me to never trust you with children" :lol:

Not really sure why I'm bringing that up. Just came to mind.

When I was a kid, I used to just play with my baby dolls as if they were kids my own age. I never mothered them. Frankly I'm not sure if I have any motherly instincts. Playing pretend with kids is fine enough, but taking care of them is a big responsibility.

I don't know if I'll ever be financially stable and independent enough to raise kids. Plus there's the fact that I will have to deal with pushback. There are going to be people who think I shouldn't be a parent. People who may try to pick on my child because they have me as a parent, which is not an easy thought. I have had people debate with me here about it, when I previously said that I might have children. I would need a thick skin.

There's also pressure from the other side as well, that I should have kids to prove people wrong, but I don't want to be a poster example, I want to be a real person.

I know during my brief time on Tiktok, the algorithm decided I wanted to hear about the problems with the foster care system and examples of people who are adopting for the wrong reasons. It made me think about what the right reasons would be. I do agree though with the main point that was being made in these videos, that you should go in with a foster first mentality and ultimately reuniting the child with their family should be the main goal if possible and appropriate.

Assisted fertility can be looked down upon in certain spaces. It's all pretty complicated and I don't know how to feel.

Some days I think "Is this all that life is? I feel scammed" yet others I wonder what my future is going to look like. I think I've learnt recently that you can't always tie things up in a way that makes narrative sense. Life is messy.


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07 Feb 2023, 3:56 pm

"What Motivates Someone To Have Children?"

Hoping that when a kid is old enough, you get to share their toys every Christmas as not seem weird.



Highlander852456
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07 Feb 2023, 4:14 pm

I have more reasons not to. Though in past I have considered it.
I am too single minded person to know how to care for them.
Genuinely think its something I could do, but it would really mean I would have zero time to do anything else.
Plus currently don't think I never had the ability to care for other kids.
Maybe Ill get a dog one day.
I think I would be a exceptional dog owner.



Pepe
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07 Feb 2023, 11:21 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are times when I think I would have been a decent father, despite my misgivings.

I would have made mistakes, and I probably would have learned from them.

I hope, though, that the mistakes I would have made wouldn’t have hurt the child at all (no, I certainly wouldn’t have physically abused the child!). I would hope, say, that I would be able to watch a toddler sufficiently, because I’m easily distracted.


All parents make mistakes.
It is simply a matter of degree.

Unless someone is "spaced out" on religion/spirituality, or "terminally" self-centred, what is the point of bringing a life into this existence?
Any rational person can see it is simply a matter of personal self-interest, assuming it is an uncoerced personal choice.
How can it be anything else?
Seriously.

I'd like to hear a cogent argument that is in disagreement.



Pepe
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07 Feb 2023, 11:33 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There are times when I think I would have been a decent father, despite my misgivings.


Kraftie you seem considerate, thoughtful, calm and kind. I'm sure you'd have done just fine.

I've hurt my child through absent-mindedness. I think most parents have at some point. It's horrible and you feel guilty for ever. I have an image of my daughter's face, contorted in agony as she discovers the pain of having her finger closed in a car door, seared into my brain. Her finger went black, the nail fell off. Then it healed and new nail grew.

Children are vulnerable, but they're also tough as nails and bounce back from physical injury in ways we adults don't.


Life is the result of a cosmic accident.
Evolution has created organisms that survive, but do not survive particularly well.

As an example:
Histamine poisoning.

There are many other examples, obviously.
I will let others "fill in the blanks".
--------
--------
--------

YOUR child may survive into adultery <sic>, but many don't.
I guess we can simply ignore the myriad of tragedies around us.
"Eyes wide shut" IS a thing. 8)

Quote:
What is the meaning of “eyes wide shut”?

The expression “eyes wide shut” means that somebody cannot see something that is right in front of them. The expression is a play on “eyes wide open,” which means to be aware of your surroundings. Since your eyes are wide, that means you can see. But since they are shut, you are refusing to.

Understanding the expression “eyes wide shut”

The expression “eyes wide shut” seems contradictory at first glance. That’s because, like many expressions in English, it’s metaphorical rather than literal.

The contradiction of the expression “eyes wide shut” is also the key to understanding its meaning.

When your eyes are wide open, it means you can see clearly. If your eyes are shut, on the other hand, you can’t see.

If you think about this more, the ultimate meaning of the phrase becomes clear. You can see because your eyes are wide. But you can’t see because they’re shut.

In short, then, “eyes wide shut” is an expression used to refer to people who refuse to see something that should be obvious to them.

https://linguaholic.com/linguablog/eyes-wide-shut/



Pepe
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07 Feb 2023, 11:37 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Thank you.

I have the affliction of absentmindedness, too.

I absolutely agree that children, often, are very resilient beings who frequently recover fast from physical and emotional trauma.

But, still, I wouldn’t have wanted my failings to force a child to test the above hypothesis.

You’ve done well, my friend.


Tell that to the dead children of Ukraine and now Turkey. 8)



Pepe
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07 Feb 2023, 11:52 pm

Lost_dragon wrote:
I know during my brief time on Tiktok, the algorithm decided I wanted to hear about the problems with the foster care system and examples of people who are adopting for the wrong reasons. It made me think about what the right reasons would be. I do agree though with the main point that was being made in these videos, that you should go in with a foster first mentality and ultimately reuniting the child with their family should be the main goal if possible and appropriate.

Assisted fertility can be looked down upon in certain spaces. It's all pretty complicated and I don't know how to feel.


Get a dog.
It is much easier and cheaper and...
...much more loyal... :mrgreen:


Lost_dragon wrote:
Some days I think "Is this all that life is? I feel scammed" yet others I wonder what my future is going to look like. I think I've learnt recently that you can't always tie things up in a way that makes narrative sense. Life is messy.


Yes, "Life is messy".
Why shouldn't it be?
This life system is a cosmic accident after all.
And the "Mad Hatter" has more sense than "Blind Evolution". 8)

The only reason humanity "pines" for meaning is due to the fact that evolution has "felt" a need to add a part of the prefrontal cortex that makes us think there SHOULD be an intrinsic meaning in life.
Hence the creation of creative nonsense called religious philosophy. 8O
Silly "evolution". :mrgreen: