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naturalplastic
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07 Jan 2024, 2:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
^
The "ancestors" of Anatolian Turks, are just like your "ancestors".

They dont remember ANY thing.

They dont remember anything because theyre dead!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

What the heck are you talking about?


Population DNA, phylogenetics. The population of modern Turkic speaking peoples in Anatolia are closer genetically to the population of the Balkans and Greece > central Asia (ancestral homeland of Turkish language)

Same goes for the Hungarians, Lapps and Finns, they speak a language that is closer to north central asians but genetically closer to their neighbors (Hungarians closer to central Europeans, Finns and Lapps closer to Scandanavians)

Likewise the Jewish disapora tend to fit genetically with populations they dwelt with for centuries. A similar thing can be seen with Romani Gypsies. They barely resemble their northern Indian ancestors. But they retain their Sanskrit based language (or at least most of it).

The idea (therefore) of a Palestinian DNA or Jewish DNA to claim "indigenous" bona fides to the region is kind of pointless. This is why the opposition of Jewish rabbis to accepting the so called Falasha Jews from Ethiopia as "real jews" is based on a false premise. The real test should be cultural and religious practice.


European Gypsies DO have dark hair and dark skin and actually DO resemble Indians (more than they resemble non Gypsy European neighbors). And Ashkenazi Jews do have genetic markers linking them to the Levant.

But the rest of what you're saying is true. That Hungarians look like East Europeans even though their closest linguistic cousins are the Mansi tribe in northern Russia a thousand miles away who like more like Eskimos than like Europeans. And modern Turks speak a Turkic language from central Asia, but are genetically little different from Greeks or from the Hittites and Lydians of ancient anatolia (modern Turkey).



cyberdad
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07 Jan 2024, 3:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Ashkenazi Jews do have genetic markers linking them to the Levant.
.


Ashkenazi Jews are a significant proportion of the Israeli population and look (phenotypically) quite similar to northern and central Europeans. But yes, even among them the "Barbara Streisand" look does predominate.



nca14
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07 Jan 2024, 6:56 pm

Molecular genealogy gives intriguing proof of historicity of the twelve sons of patriarch Jacob?

I suppose that direct male patrilineal descendants of patriarch Jacob (Israel) are only men with Y-DNA haplogroup J-Z18271. Other Y-DNA haplogroups (including other clades of Y-DNA haplogroup J1, especially other than J-ZS222 and its more distant ancestor J-ZS241) appear to be non-Israelite (not descending directly from son of Isaac and from twin brother of Esau) by patrilineage. Although the time of most recent common ancestor of J-Z18271 is often estimated in the first half of I millennium BCE, the J-Z18271 TMRCA can be highly underestimated and that Y-DNA haplogroup may be about thousand years older, which would correspond to the biblical chronology about Jacob and his descendants. It is unique among large Jewish Y-DNA haplogroups, it has about 12 various lineages descending directly from J-Z18271 level, which looks to be the proof of existence of 12 sons of Jacob and their male descendants in direct lineage to modern times. I suppose that J-Z18271 is not only haplogroup of Cohanim, but of ALL twelve biological sons of Jacob, not just Levi or his more distant descendant Aaron. Many relatively large Jewish Y-DNA subclades other than J-Z18271 (which are from different Y-DNA haplogroups, like J1 (but not from ZS241 branch), J2, E, R1b, R1a, G, Q) have MUCH YOUNGER estimated TMRCAs than J-Z18271 alone, often not exceeding 2000 ybp. There is a large founder effect below J-Z18271 in J-S12192 lineage which has TMRCA estimated in VII century CE, but there is relatively old-branching early subclade of J-Z18271 - J-FT157560, which may be the lineage of a son of Jacob, Levi (and of Cohanim descending from Aaron, a more distant descendant of Levi) instead of bottlenecked J-S12192 (a deeper descendant of J-S17446 which is placed on current Y-DNA trees just below J-Z18271) which falls under other subclade below J-Z18271 than J-FT157560. J-S17446 is not as branched "in antiquity" as J-FT157560, according to current Y-DNA trees. J-S17446 may represent another son of Jacob than Levi, maybe for example Judah, Beniamin or Joseph.



cyberdad
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07 Jan 2024, 7:23 pm

Interesting? I thought the Tribe of Dan was lost? how did they figure out the marker genes for the lost 12th Tribe of Israel?



nca14
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16 Jan 2024, 9:33 am

I read that the Ten Tribes prseumbably lost of Israel were in fact NOT lost about VIII century BCE and that, as I may understand, members of all twelve Isrealitic tribes were national Israelites (or even Jews?) during the time of Christ. Stories about Lost Ten Tribes are or at least appear to be just an unbiblical myth (and the J-Z18271 Y-DNA haplogroup may be the proof that is so). (For example), in second chapter of Gospel of Luke an individual is described as descending from the tribe of Asher:

Quote:
36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,
37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.



cbryn
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16 Feb 2024, 1:18 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
European Jews often have red hair (so do some Palestinian Arabs) but they still tend to "look Jewish". Facial bone structure etc. Appearances can be deceiving. As you said in the sentence that contradicts everything else you said...there are DNA markers.


ummm do you know how genetics work?


I don't really think anyone doing AncestryDNA and claiming it as factual knows much about genetics.

My whole comment was to say it's modern phrenology to claim proximity to a certain place on the planet, just as it would be stupid to honor someone's Biblical history vs. let's say, a Palestinian family in the West Bank who has a printed deed to their house.

What's sickening too is the amount of genetic politicking that is being done to justify it. If we only have ahistorical hearsay and tradition to go off of, let's maybe just pick up where we left off yesterday, not pick up at 59 AD or whenever the "second Temple" was destroyed



cyberdad
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16 Feb 2024, 6:54 pm

cbryn wrote:
My whole comment was to say it's modern phrenology to claim proximity to a certain place on the planet, just as it would be stupid to honor someone's Biblical history vs. let's say, a Palestinian family in the West Bank who has a printed deed to their house.


There is a concept in population phylogenetics called "genetic distance". It can be fairly accurate in determining how closely related you are to another human being in terms of generations back when you and the other person had a common ancestor. That isn't phrenology which we know now to be bunk.

The problem with genetic distance is that the further back in time you go the more uncertain the relationship. Jews supposedly pride themselves on practicing endogamy whereby they do not marry goyim (non-jews). But their genetic composition still seems to geographically determined. For example Jewish communities who settled in India around 400AD and maintained continuous populations until the formation of the state of Israel in 1948. But when they arrived in Tel Aviv the rabbis were met with men and women who were quite clearly Indian in appearance. The same when they met Falasha jews from Ethiopia. Quite clearly there was a Jewish community in Ethiopia who settled their but they obviously didn't practice endogamy otherwise they would be extinct. The same with European Ashkenazi jews who mostly resemble their European neighbours. Of course racist Europeans in the 1930s made a science of finding jewish phenotypes but much of that was pseudoscientific.

Having marker genes that identify a Jewish ancestor does not mean closeness in terms of genes. Geographic distance is highly correlated with genetic distance. So trying to use marker genes to shore up your Jewish credentials is stupid.



Honey69
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20 Feb 2024, 12:04 pm

Here is another group, from Southern Africa, that may have Jewish ancestry.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51FvUnYDV6M


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MaxE
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21 Feb 2024, 7:55 am

Fascinating, but is any of this relevant to the situation in Gaza? Please forgive me if I'm wrong to assume that this thread was begun based on that premise!


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Honey69
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21 Feb 2024, 10:50 am

MaxE wrote:
Fascinating, but is any of this relevant to the situation in Gaza? Please forgive me if I'm wrong to assume that this thread was begun based on that premise!


Well, the topic is "The Palestinian DNA AND OTHERS", so I don't think that the topic is restricted to the situation in Gaza. Some of the material started off discussing the Khazars.

Anyway: some more material, relevant to DNA:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/dna-an ... A_mMfpKEVw


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Honey69
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25 Feb 2024, 9:31 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9hAYGi4k8


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Honey69
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25 Feb 2024, 10:35 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrFrx8-wEg


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Honey69
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07 Mar 2024, 11:19 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2BEOG41Ta4


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