Hello my question what do you think of Wealthy/Rich/Upper E

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auntblabby
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03 Jul 2013, 1:57 am

it is ethically better to be righteous poor [never harming anybody in any way] than to be bully rich [having got that way through hook or crook, buying politicians to write laws to keep them rich at everybody else's expense].



Pileo
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03 Jul 2013, 3:00 am

The downside is that the rich bully has more friends than the righteous poor and succeeds in making the righteous poors' life harder. Humans have a nasty habit of following the guy with the largest stick, despite the person having questionable ethics.



seaturtleisland
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03 Jul 2013, 3:29 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
mikecartwright wrote:
I can't say to know the minds of all wealthy people, but I somewhat gave up my "compassion" for those without a long time ago because I came to accept that you "can't fix stupid."


You can't fix stupid but does anybody choose to be stupid? I'd have compassion for the person with an IQ of 80 who makes consistently bad choices because he just doesn't get it. I'd have sympathy for the person with poor impulse control who tries to think long term but still has trouble making good financial decisions.

It's harder for some people. Not everyone's smart and smart people tend to do better in life.



zer0netgain
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03 Jul 2013, 3:42 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
You can't fix stupid but does anybody choose to be stupid?


In some cases, yes.

I'm doing work in a bankruptcy firm. There's no good reason why half the people in here are in the mess they are in other than they have no sense of financial discipline. They have no obvious disability as far as living within their means. Heck, some call years later wanting COPIES of their discharge papers...something common sense says you should keep in a safe place.

If a person insists on spending every dime they get and not being responsible, even AFTER it hurts them time and time again, they aren't "victims" of the rich not spreading the wealth around. They are victims of their own poor choices.



auntblabby
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03 Jul 2013, 5:52 pm

these folks were born under a bad star, in that they all probably would've failed the cookie test when they were children. their parents failed them also, for not preparing them for the harsh realities of life. when a parent who fails the cookie test has children who fail the cookie test, there is no real hope outside of the village that it takes to raise a child properly.



ruveyn
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03 Jul 2013, 6:31 pm

auntblabby wrote:
it is ethically better to be righteous poor [never harming anybody in any way] than to be bully rich [having got that way through hook or crook, buying politicians to write laws to keep them rich at everybody else's expense].


How about being righteous and well off. That can be done. It is often done. Just because a few money-bag Cronies get away with murder is no reason to believe that the only path to righteousness is poverty.

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auntblabby
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03 Jul 2013, 7:40 pm

"vv13- There was a rich man named Onesiphorus who said: If I believe, shall I be able to do wonders? Andrew said: Yes, if you forsake your wife and all your possessions. He was angry and put his garment about Andrew's neck and began to beat him, saying: You are a wizard, why should I do so? 14 Peter saw it and told him to leave off. He said: I see you are wiser than he. What do you say? Peter said: I tell you this: it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Onesiphorus was yet more angry and took his garment off Andrew's neck and cast it on Peter's and haled him along, saying: You are worse than the other. If you show me this sign, I and the whole city will believe but if not you shall be punished. 15 Peter was troubled and stood and prayed: Lord, help us at this hour, for thou hast entrapped us by thy words. 16 The Saviour appeared in the form of a boy of twelve years, wearing a linen garment 'smooth within and without', and said; Fear not: let the needle and the camel be brought. There was a huckster in the town who had been converted by Philip; and he heard of it, and looked for a needle with a large eye, but Peter said: Nothing is impossible with God rather bring a needle with a small eye. 17 When it was brought, Peter saw a camel coming and stuck the needle in the ground and cried: In the name of Jesus Christ crucified under Pontius Pilate I command thee, camel, to go through the eye of the needle. The eye opened like a gate and the camel passed through; and yet again, at Peter's bidding. 18 Onesiphorus said: You are a great sorcerer: but I shall not believe unless I may send for a needle and a camel. And he said secretly to a servant: Bring a camel and a needle, and find a defiled woman and some swine's flesh and bring them too. And Peter heard it in the spirit and said: O slow to believe, bring your camel and woman and needle and flesh. 19 When they were brought Peter stuck the needle in the ground, with the flesh, the woman was on the camel. He commanded it as before, and the camel went through, and back again. 20 Onesiphorus cried out, convinced and said: Listen. I have lands and vineyards and 27 litrae of gold and 50 of silver, and many slaves: I will give my goods to the poor and free my slaves if I may do a wonders like you. Peter said: If you believe, you shall. 21 Yet he was afraid he might not be able, because he was not baptized, but a voice came: Let him do what he will. So Onesiphorus stood before the needle and camel and commanded it to go through and it went as far as the neck and stopped. And he asked why. 'Because you are not yet baptized.' He was content, and the apostles went to his house, and 1,000 souls were baptized that night." (Acts of Peter and Andrew vv.14-21, The Apocryphal New Testament, M R James, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924, p459).

IOW nothing is impossible under god but just the same a rich man also has to remember who is boss.



zer0netgain
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04 Jul 2013, 8:37 am

auntblabby wrote:
their parents failed them also, for not preparing them for the harsh realities of life.


This is why parenthood is such a HUGE responsibility and it bothers me how glibly people regard it.



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04 Jul 2013, 9:38 am

I have known some very rich people who were not happy people at all.
But I wouldn't mind having more money,I'd have fun donating it.
I'd rather be poor and happy,money can make your life easier, but it can't make you a happy person.
I heard a story about the camel and the eye of the needle,can't remember where.But it said the eye of the needle was a rock formation with an opening,all the camel has to do is lower his head to get through.Maybe something to do with being humble.


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ruveyn
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04 Jul 2013, 11:45 am

How many jobs to the poor and squalid create?



Bitoku
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04 Jul 2013, 12:29 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Most people who would be counted as the top 1% earned their wealth from hard work and sacrifice. Hard work and sacrifice most of the 99% are not willing to do.
I have mixed feelings about the poor. This is because poverty has so many causes, and several of them are individual and community choices.

I'm not really that interested in taking sides here in general, but I wanted to respond to this, because I think it's perhaps a bit inaccurate.

The main causes of wealth and poverty is usually privilege by birth. In a lot of countries this means being born into a wealthy family pretty much ensures you'll be wealthy too, and vice versa if you're born into a poor family. A country like the United States tries to eliminate this wealth by birth issue by making it possible to work your way to the top, which is something the less capitalist countries don't make very possible. But in a capitalist country, while the wealth and poverty may seem dictated by what an individual is willing to work for, there's hidden aspects that serve to dictate who becomes wealthy or poor that aren't as easily seen.

A main thing to look at here are psychological conditions. The United States may make everything available to everyone, but it doesn't come without a price. Most psychological conditions can become crippling to individuals in such a "do it yourself" type of economic setup, and ironically the treatment or counselling they would need in order to be successful often requires a certain degree of financial success or resources in order to obtain.

This results in a sort of issue where people born into wealth will still be far more likely to be wealthy themselves, since they can buy any treatment they need to combat against any psychological or physiological issues that would normally hold them back from success. Likewise, it's a lot harder for someone with a psychological condition to become wealthy, because said condition can often impede their ability to socialize and/or maintain a job in a normal reliable way. Parents who have psychological conditions can easily get trapped into being poor due to not being able to afford suitable treatment, and then their kids are trapped into a similar situation when they have psychological issues too. The pattern continues, with the wealthy having less untreated psychological conditions that impede their ability to generate wealth, and the poor becoming trapped into the lower income levels due to their psychological conditions that they can't afford to treat, and this pattern is continued through the family line to their kids, and then their kids, etc.



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04 Jul 2013, 12:43 pm

Quote:
Exceptional upward mobility in the US is a myth, international studies show

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—The rhetoric is relentless: America is a place of unparalleled opportunity, where hard work and determination can propel a child out of humble beginnings into the White House, or at least a mansion on a hill.

But the reality is very different, according to a University of Michigan researcher who is studying inequality across generations around the world.

"Especially in the United States, people underestimate the extent to which your destiny is linked to your background. Research shows that it's really a myth that the U.S. is a land of exceptional social mobility," said Fabian Pfeffer, a sociologist at the U-M Institute for Social Research and the organizer of an international conference on inequality across multiple generations being held Sept. 13-14 in Ann Arbor.

Pfeffer's own research illustrates this point based on data on two generations of families in the U.S. and a comparison of his findings to similar data from Germany and Sweden. The U.S. data come from the ISR Panel Study of Income Dynamics, a survey of a nationally representative sample that started with 5,000 U.S. families in 1968.

He found that parental wealth plays an important role in whether children move up or down the socioeconomic ladder in adulthood. And that parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility—parental education, income and occupation.

"Wealth not only fulfills a purchasing function, allowing families to buy homes in good neighborhoods and send their children to costly schools and colleges, for example, but it also has an insurance function, offering a sort of private safety net that gives children a very different set of choices as they enter the adult world," Pfeffer said.

"Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. provides exceptional opportunities for upward mobility, these data show that parental wealth has an important role in shielding offspring from downward mobility and sustaining their upward mobility in the U.S. no less than in countries like Germany and Sweden, where parental wealth also serves as a private safety net that not even the more generous European public programs and social services seem to provide."

Pfeffer is now expanding the number of countries he is analyzing, and is also examining the influence of grandparents' wealth.

Meanwhile, at the conference next week in Ann Arbor, participants from universities in Singapore, Sweden, Japan, Germany, Great Britain, South Africa and across the U.S. will share their ongoing research on different facets of intergenerational influences on inequality, from the timing of childbirth over generations to the impact grandparents, uncles and aunts have on educational attainment.

###

Information on Pfeffer's research: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fpfeffer/cv_en.html

Working paper on Pfeffer's research, co-authored by Martin Hällsten, "Mobility Regimes and Parental Wealth: The United States, Germany, and Sweden in Comparison": www.psc.isr.umich.edu/pubs/abs/7676

Information on the conference, "Inequality across Multiple Generations": http://psidonline.isr.umich.edu/Publica ... Agenda.pdf

Established in 1949, the University of Michigan Institute for Social Research is the world's largest academic social science survey and research organization, and a world leader in developing and applying social science methodology, and in educating researchers and students from around the world. ISR conducts some of the most widely cited studies in the nation, including the Thomson Reuters/University of Michigan Surveys of Consumers, the American National Election Studies, the Monitoring the Future Study, the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, the Health and Retirement Study, the Columbia County Longitudinal Study and the National Survey of Black Americans. ISR researchers also collaborate with social scientists in more than 60 nations on the World Values Surveys and other projects, and the institute has established formal ties with universities in Poland, China and South Africa. ISR is also home to the Inter-University Consortium for Political and Social Research, the world's largest digital social science data archive. For more information, visit the ISR website at www.isr.umich.edu.


Yo clickity.


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Misslizard
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04 Jul 2013, 1:06 pm

ruveyn wrote:
How many jobs to the poor and squalid create?


It gives the wealthy bored people something to do,they can volunteer at a soup kitchen,now they can feel good about being wealthy.They gave a hobo a bowl of soup.And lots of jobs for social workers.


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