Right wing co-opting and rebranding of Mandela

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Tequila
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15 Dec 2013, 1:18 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Mandela once said "the world cannot be free while Palestine is still in chains".

Google shows that he didn't. In fact, you're the only person that has ever made that statement online.

You're such a bad liar it's unreal.

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15 Dec 2013, 1:36 pm

thomas81 wrote:

lotuspuppy wrote:

Because a,) half of these people probably weren't alive in the 1960s.

The anti mandela lynch mobs were active well into the 1980's. David Cameron was a student in the Young Conservatives at the time and helped spearlead the 'hang Mandela' campaign. Which makes it all the more sickening to listen to him deliver his obituaries and fake condolences.

Cameron is slime and we are very unfortunate to have him as our prime minister now. Thatcher was also against Mandela and sanctions against South Africa in the 80's.

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15 Dec 2013, 2:15 pm

A message from Mandela on the middle east dated from 2001.
http://www.keghart.com/Mandela-Palestine

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The_Walrus
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15 Dec 2013, 2:40 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Mandela once said "the world cannot be free while Palestine is still in chains".

Google shows that he didn't. In fact, you're the only person that has ever made that statement online.

You're such a bad liar it's unreal.

The quote is actually “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

Here is the full transcript of the speech: http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384

You would probably both benefit from reading the full speech.

thomas81
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15 Dec 2013, 2:59 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Mandela once said "the world cannot be free while Palestine is still in chains".

Google shows that he didn't. In fact, you're the only person that has ever made that statement online.

You're such a bad liar it's unreal.

I knew it was something to that effect.

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lotuspuppy
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15 Dec 2013, 4:00 pm

thomas81 wrote:

lotuspuppy wrote:

Because a,) half of these people probably weren't alive in the 1960s.

Maybe. I am not aware as to what relationship David Cameron or anyone else in the UK had with anyone or anything in South Africa. Frankly, I am not aware of any past or present criticism of Madiba.

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15 Dec 2013, 4:10 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

Is it true that he was a leader of a terrorist organization that killed civilians?

No, that's not entirely true. MK's official policy at the time was just sabotage, while avoiding loss of life altogether. Mandela never endorsed killing innocent civilians. In fact, virtually all cases where there was loss of life, Mandela was already in prison. So he wasnt even responsible for everything that the ANC did. At the Rivonia trial he was charged with sabotage, not murder and their definition of "terrorism" was overly broad.

Tequila
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15 Dec 2013, 7:42 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

The quote is actually “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

...which can ably be catered for by a two-state solution, which Mandela has also advocated. That same solution has been on the table since the late 1930s, nearly ten years before Israel was even founded.

(I theoretically would be completely for it if the 'Palestinians' showed signs of becoming a responsible, liberal democracy that treats its Jewish citizens as equals. In other words, in cloud-cuckoo land.)

Mutual respect and tolerance - Jews living as equal citizens in the Palestinian state, Arabs living as equals in the Israeli state (as now).

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16 Dec 2013, 4:31 pm

Tequila wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

The quote is actually “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

If anyone wants to compare the Israeli-Palestinian situation to apartheid South Africa, then perhaps when Hamas and the PLO stop referring the "Jews" as the enemy then maybe there will at least be some points of comparison. Mandela and the ANC has never referred to the "whites" as the enemy even despite apartheid being a system based on racial segregation with white South Africans being the main beneficiaries and even during the time that he fighting against the apartheid system and even sought reconciliation with those responsible for apartheid in South Africa, once he became president. On the other hand, Hamas and other Palestinian organisations, as well as pro-Palistinan groups in surrounding arab countries, are even more antisemitic than the Nats in the Apartheid government were racist, now that should tell you something. I won't go into the other reasons why the two situations don't compare but there are quite a few, including the fact that arab Israeli's are still treated as citizens within Israel.

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16 Dec 2013, 5:13 pm

Jono wrote:

Nelson Mandela didn't, but there was a sizeable portion of the ANC that did, and would brutally execute people suspected of collaborating with the government.

Marwan Barghouti is the man I've seen compared to Mandela. There do seem to be strong parallels (initially totally opposed to violence, drawn into violence when non-violence didn't work, condemned and avoided attacking civilians, given a long prison sentence) but I don't know enough about either man to say whether the comparisons really stand up.

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17 Dec 2013, 5:39 pm

Jono wrote:

I believe that Palestine needs its 'own Mandela' (the closest person to fit the role so far was perhaps Arafat) but to claim that the sum of the issues seperating the differences between Palestine and Apartheid SA are the branding by PLO and Hamas is quite laughable. The power hold of the anti-semites in the PA is strengthened by Israeli aggression.

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thomas81
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17 Dec 2013, 5:40 pm

Tequila wrote:

Mutual respect and tolerance - Jews living as equal citizens in the Palestinian state, Arabs living as equals in the Israeli state (as now).

This is a lie; Israel is a proven Jewish supremacist state at both the social and leglislative levels.

Even non muslim minorities are publically harrassed in Israel.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlT3ARuUSGc[/youtube]

"Its not your land!"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jG6kJm-50k[/youtube]

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thomas81
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17 Dec 2013, 6:07 pm

Meanwhile, in Gaza...

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/ ... -rainwater

cue retalitory rocket attacks and self prophesising Israeli victim blaming.

Going back slightly to the OP, its a stretch of the imagination to call Mandela a 'Zionist'. He was a zionist in as far as he subscribed to a dual state solution. The comparison he made between South African blacks and Jews is not of Israeli Jews but that of Jews living during the nazi pogroms of the third reich. That is a very different context.

Mandela was a very unique diplomat that conceded ground to his foes to an extent that most others would have considered unreasonable, at one stage he even endangered his credibility among his comrades. He did however, identify with the Palestinian cause and the need to an end of Israeli persecution of the arabs as he did with the plight of Irish nationalists in Foyleside or West Belfast.

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Kraichgauer
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18 Dec 2013, 11:52 am

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Mutual respect and tolerance - Jews living as equal citizens in the Palestinian state, Arabs living as equals in the Israeli state (as now).

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

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thomas81
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18 Dec 2013, 1:04 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

Those are orthodox Jews or rabbis.

One has to ask if this is the thought processes of their religious elite, what example are secular or moderate Israeli jews following?

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Master_Pedant
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18 Dec 2013, 1:08 pm

Tequila wrote:

Mutual respect and tolerance - Jews living as equal citizens in the Palestinian state, Arabs living as equals in the Israeli state (as now).

Not really "as now", but that sounds like a template for a binational One State Solution.

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