The Bible. Myth or Reality?

Post Reply New Topic

If I had 50 million dollars without any strings attached, I could, most likely, live in a more Biblical way. So long as there's food to buy and bills to pay without a lot of money, scratches head, not sure how I can live up to all of it. Besides, the N.T. frowns upon money anyway but anyone without it knows how that goes. So, I have to forego some of what's in there just to keep myself afloat.

I wish they would put the revised part in foot notes and leave the original version along with it. If everything's above board, why do they insist in doing away with the original?

No doubt floods have happened but what's this about a boat big enough for two of every creature on earth and a human family to live on for many days? That's the part I always have trouble with.

That's still very literal interpretation - far more likely we're dealing with symbol and allegory.

I paired down my first post in this thread, deleted it several times just because I was doubtful that I even wanted to participate. One of the things I said in one of my original offerings that apparently didn't stick on my last revision; it seems like Israel became a monotheistic culture by influence of the Persians. The whole 'history' content of the book is what is conspicuous - ie. no evidence of captivity in or exodus from Egypt, no evidence of mass genocide of their Canaanite brethren, in fact it's 12 tribes around 1 tribe slaying 7 tribes - like usual it smacks super-heavy of astrotheological allegory (12 signs of the zodiac, 7 planets, etc.). If you see 72 or 70, often interchanged, it's dealing with the duodecants of the sky, instances of the number 42 hearken back to the 42 Assessors of Ma'at (Egyptian goddess of moral code and the goddess who's feather one's heart is weighed against in the judgment hall of Osiris).

Under that kind of number and word-play it's very difficult for me to take much of anything literally. I have to consider Swami Vivekenanda's advice of just doing the kinds of yogic work to be able to to the inner planes and see what mystics of old actually meant by what they wrote - it's written so non-specifically that you almost need that. Apparently the seven Elohim are still a very big deal (almost always referenced part-in-parcel with the Ptolemaic planets), I got that when I was talking to a local coordinator of a group I'm in and asking whether it was possible that our beliefs about the night sky perhaps programmed the collective unconscious to spit out that particular result (ie. edifying astrology as a system). It's tough to give concise answers to any of that stuff on this kind of board because, wow, it is diffuse and abstract to say the least an the moment I feel like I even trust my own understanding my confidence gets hit from something else I pick up. The more I learn the less I even feel comfortable in making some of the assertions I might have made over what was propaganda in the bible vs. what was mystic text, just because each new twist offers completely different possible motivations behind key verses.

Needless to say though I don't subscribe much to modern evangelicalism. Seeing that following the tracks of the astrotheology of the bible lead to the doors of Hermeticism that was pretty much it for me. I've been pursuing the Rosicrucian track ever since.

So you think, perhaps, the ancient Israelites were in the same spot, always resisting these outside influences? They created fables to illustrate their inner resistance as a society? In other words, they were surrounded by all these idol worshiping cultures, so they had to be extra vigilant they didn't become ones themselves, hence the hyperbole. You do believe they engaged in warfare, though?
They were a mystical people so what you write about astrology and numerology makes sense. Perhaps it is a kind of mysticism western culture cannot fathom at this time because our culture isn't that mystical, not in the same sense as theirs. Maybe this explains why so many Christians are apt to take the Bible literally? The words seem to be all they know and they do not bother trying to enter the mindset of these folks from antiquity. They take what's in the Bible and apply it to their own lives like it was meant for today because this is how they were raised. It would be as if I lived life according to what's in Star Wars. It's a surreal proposal, not saying all that's in Star Wars should be regarded as completely irrelevant to life. Some of it is helpful. Same goes for what's in the Bible.

Of course, there was a time, especially in the lives of the pioneers in the American West, all that existed for them was a Bible they carried with them on wagon trails. They lacked phones, radios, televisions, computers and most books. Much time was devoted to reading the only book they had which could be why we see a lot of it in certain parts of the country, less in others that are more settled, except for people who have remained primarily Anabaptist throughout the ages despite having stayed in the same places.

When I was a teenager, I took a Rosicrucian Course through the mail for a short while. They sent questions for me to answer but never seemed satisfied with what I sent back.

As I understand Gnostic Christianity and our myths, we are Universalists and the only salvation we seek is from poor thinking thanks to lack of Gnosis. In our myths, our real God which some call Good, would not allow the demiurge to create us for less than the best possible end, which is heaven. That is why he snuck into us a spark of himself. No entity with the spark of God within it is ever condemned so we have no need from salvation. In a real sense, we are God WIPs. Which is Good allowing for creation for the best possible end as a God would insist on.

Are Gnostic Christians not Universalists? If we were the root of Catholicism as some say, and Catholic means Universal, then we would be Universalists as the Catholicism that Constantine bought is not. If we had thought as Constantine's church did, they would not have decimated us. Right?

That is also why we cannot be homophobic and misogynous the way the mainstream religions are. Our stance on equality for women is a part of why Gnostic Christians were killed by the misogynous Christianity that Rome built.

Regards
DL

Reading the ancient text is good but you forget where Jesus indicated the real laws you are to follow are located. In your heart and within your inner God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

If you wish to know God. you have to go visit him.

Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

To end your poverty, seek the vision.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Gnosis connects dots and I have given you a dot trail to follow if you see the dots.

If not, reading is good, but I cannot see it leading you to apotheosis. It did not do it for me and I read something like 8 sets of so called holy books and bibles. Good luck regardless

Regards
DL

Yes, I see your position. You do not seek Gnosis. Your are like a bee who has not yet landed on a flower but have only looked at their surface and do not know there is sticky pollen there. Gnosis is the pollen that wants to be stuck to you.

"(for the purpose of "testing" humanity's ability to "humble" themselves or to see if they're of the "arrogant" type who insists that they only want to listen to kings & people of "social-status" importance)."

Do y really believe that only certain personality types get to heaven?

Is that how you would set up heaven?

Further, do you not think an arrogant mind would cow-tow to anyone, se they king or fool?

I think you have much thinking to do my friend so seek the God within you for guidance.

Regards
DL

A P.S. for you on text and how to read them and play with them the way the ancients did and how we should still do it today.

If pressed to time, you can start at the 16 min. mark but the whole clip is worthy of note.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Regards
DL

This is true and thanks to editing and lack of understanding today of the more esoteric nuance, they should all be redone in our own mind and understanding. If you view that clip just above, you will see that the Jews knew this would happen and wanted each new generation to reinterpret the text. That is why a Rabbi could overrule the word of God written in their holy books. A live man was to dominate and be our highest form and not some dead God.

Google Divine Council and recall Jesus asking, ---- have ye forgotten hat ye are Gods?

Regards
DL

The "etymology" of "gnosis" simply means knowledge.
Frequently I have encountered "religious-types" before who are afraid of knowledge.
They claim that knowledge is evil, yet at the same time, they claim to "worship" an ALL-knowing God.
The irony of knowledge being evil, and they "worship" some god, who encompasses all of that knowledge.
I certainly put this before them in order to force them into cognitive-dissonance:
Does that not make God an Evil One ?

I only have ONE "dogmatic" belief: You will experience everything that you or your servants cause others to experience, and if not during the current life, then in the next or a future life-existence.

Heaven: This is not a very well-defined term, but as far as getting into the more "quantum-woo" aspects of definitions, the real one is the highest-positive-energy-frequency realm/plane/dimension/universe/reality of existence. Let me put it another way, with an example, and it is those people who find themselves in an after-life existence. Sure, they may at first believe that they are in heaven, due to finding themselves in a better place/existence than what they experienced back in their earth-lives, but eventually, they see that suffering still exists within their universe, even more religions abound than back during their earth-life, and they are forced to come to the conclusion that, despite being better than the earth-life, that it is still not actually heaven.

I do have "beliefs" regarding "getting into heaven" (but WHICH "heaven" are you referring to is the question). Also, I have no need to set up the place from where I originated (all of us originated there for that matter), but its existence-type is different enough from the material-type that there aren't many very good earth-life-equivalent metaphors to be able to describe that type of existence. I will tell you this much, though, that I feel rather disabled in human-form, versus that of my spirit-form. Humans are limited to a mere five senses. Now think about that for a moment, suppose you were to drop a dimension or two in existence, that you were then limited to only one or two of your senses, but you yet retain memories of your original five senses, you would certainly feel disabled. Similarly, due to my retention of my spirit-life existence, and pre-earth-life memories, I have plenty of reasons to be frustrated at simply even being here in this material-existence (because the main human-senses are limited to five rather than having a full 32 different types of senses). I also do certainly have the "belief" that "arrogance" is caused by a "mind-controlling/mind-altering" contamination of the soul/spirit itself (and due to this contamination being linked to the mind of the source of all evil it will do its absolutely utmost in order to ensure that those whom are infected by it will be blinded to truths in order for The Dark Sovereign Power to ensure that the infected continue to be permanently contaminated & never escape from the clutches of said mind-controlling influence).

Regarding who gets into the "real" heaven, that has nothing to do with personality, but entirely on one's treatment of others (and the treatment by their servants upon others... this means that funding the wages of police & military & politicians make police & military & politicians the servants of the tax-payers). One basically does not get into heaven until they stop being complicit to the suffering of others otherwise all they are doing is repeating the same mistake of incurring more negative karmic-debts that must be "suffered through" as "payment" (refer to Render Unto God vs Render Unto Caesar). Yes, I have much thinking to do as it is not always easy to translate upper-dimension concepts into physical-vocabulary, but I certainly try, and find that Quantum-Physics has a lot of good "metaphors" that I can use. The "unique properties" of this particular universe allow it to have a kind of "psychic-connection" into many "realms" of existence, and so anything that you learn or I learn within this "training system" of spiritual-evolution, thus, too, will all of the "beings" whom are "linked" into our "minds" via similar frequencies also "learn" of the same content.

Roaming spirits have far more influence in this world than is given credit for or that the public is even aware of but there's plenty of well-documented research-cases to indicate that spirit-forces do in fact influence much of what goes on in this physical-realm. One of those well-documented publications is the book by Dr. Carl Wickland (titled: 30 Years Among the Dead). The last thing I will mention is that I certainly have a belief that the ultimate deciever (The Dark Sovereign Power being referred to in the past as Satan/Devil/Shiva/Baal/Shetani/etc) of all most-certainly has the capability to fool absolutely everybody within the whole entire universe, such that it can simultaneously trick all of them into believing that they are all going to heaven, whilst simultaneously leading everybody in the entire universe astray into more of a "hell-bound" destination. The more it can convince the inhabitants of any universe that IT does not exist then the easier it becomes for this "demi-urge" to control & manipulate & deceive its pawns unto their very own spiritual-destruction.

^^

"Roaming spirits"

Thanks for showing us where your pathetic mind is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBxFXQy7-M

Regards
DL

Thanks for showing us your a-priori mentality without even bothering to do your home-work.

You have just joined the ranks of the pseudo-skeptics.

No, I think they were a polytheistic people with a head deity named 'El', they were taken by the Babylonians, the Persians conquered the Babylonians - who incidentally were monotheists (ie. Zoroaster), and thus a series of books were either written on the spot or sown together to invent a history that didn't happen - ie. a people who were supposed to be monotheist, knew they were supposed to be monotheist, but were polytheist and punished for worshiping other gods. Considering the times your religious beliefs were largely determined by who conquered you last and in this case their story was modified again and again (I can see that with the Egyptian import of arks and 42 assessors the commerce and kinship between the Canaanites and Egypt rather than any historical slavery would have a lot to do with this).

Essentially someone set them up with a prefabbed religious narrative, sent them back to their own land to rebuild the temple on Mount Moriah, and Nehemiah had his people set to work on the building of the '2nd Temple' while Ezra dealt with the teaching of the new religion.

Astrotheology was a super-common component to religions back then. On the other hand I might invite you to consider this; the mystery schools of the region were doing things very similar to what the yogis of India and later also the Buddhists were doing in terms of meditation and inner exploration (it's where you get the 'As above so below' that's so common in Hermeticism and it also means 'as within so without' - macrocosm and microcosm). When people start talking about etheric, astral, mental, or causal bodies or start talking about explorations of shared places of inner consciousness - that's essentially what kind of mysticism we're getting into; stuff that, regardless of what a random new ager might tell you, takes a lot of rigorous work over the course of years (these are also far FAR older concepts and much more global than something hatched in the 60's by hippies or even by Theosophists or Golden Dawn'ers in the late Victorian era). The whole story of western occultism and it getting called 'satanic' by the authorities were for similar reasons as to why we'd trade with China and hiss at Cuba, ie. the Hindus and Buddhists had their own books, were far away, however western occultists were using the bible, seeing its high-pagan roots, and reading it accordingly - of course that would freak the religious authorities, all very literal-minded, the heck out because it was their geographic territory and the integrity of their read of their book that was being given a huge alternative.


The preachers were probably as much a mixed bag back then as they were now but it's fascinating to note that the ones who really stood out had some profound metaphysical insights, perhaps not off the path much at all from mainstream fundamentalism, but they knew how to take care of emphasizing the right things rather than chasing people around with the details.


The one I'm in, as far as I'm aware, sets a minimum of age 18 for joining. You could have been part of a different one, I figure if your as thirsty for answers as you sound like you are you could do a lot of your own self-study just in getting the right books. That way you don't have to write back to San Jose, Oceanside, or Quakertown (depending on the order you were in) every time you finish a series of self-study. Similarly there's tons of great Golden Dawn related books out there, plenty of which are free on pdf, that comprise a step by step how-to for practical mysticism.

This thread needs a "Why Gnosticism is Bullocks" video...

I have chosen my label and reject yours.

Regards
DL

One of the things I've had trouble with in the concept of positive = electric = closer to God vs. negative = magnetic = farther from God or secondary effects of the electric on matter was how I saw R.S Clymer treat the topic in one of his books - edifying women's place as subordinate beings (ie. magnetic and thus derivative while maleness is 'electric').

So much of this seems to come down to Ex Nihilo creation - ie. does it make any sense? Really the question with that - was there something outside of God for God to manipulate? Does God have an 'outside' at all? For one I can't comprehend the jump of logic involved in Ex Nihilo for God to create something that's separate from itself. Words are just a translation of thought the same way that steam revolving a turbine doesn't 'create' electricity. Needless to say in a pantheistic or panentheistic model it's self-contradicting.

I think the closet hybrid I've heard to really having a dualism-within-monism is the concept that God is reaching outward into entropy of its own absolute being and that as it reaches outward it reclaims firmer and firmer ground as it reaches deeper into lower dimensions (it seems to be implied when people talk about things like Dion Fortune's Cosmic Doctrine or bring up a 'Ring Pass-Not'). Within that framework its considered that the Luciferic spirit is the perpetual pioneer, that the devil - such as in tarot key 15 - is the tester and trier of souls but not necessarily evil so much as working the pain keyboard of evolution and managing the school of hard knocks which people, eventually by their tower moment, come to realize that there's a lot more to the world and universe than 'what you see is what you get'.

Seems like a lot of this indicates that return to have a life fully grounded in the ethers or in the desire realm is to simply have evolved out. Shedding karma is part of it, however there seems to be an additional caveat - that one does have to evolve, that running from the process no matter how methodically doesn't seem to work. The goal seems to be completely removing sources of error from within one's subconscious record. It's not a suggestion that one would want to run at error to learn from it the hard way so much as it takes careful consideration that it be at least sublimated as harmlessly as possible but not necessarily run from or repressed as that just puts it off. Clearly there are some very low places in the astral that a person can go to if they've been a real lug in their lives and the toxins that they accrued and didn't clear become either a purgatory on the light side or an underworld type hell on harsher side if they buried themselves in enough violence and sadism - the good news at least is that the agonies of the next life can propel someone back upward.


Aside from that I wanted to offer that it sounds like you have a lot of very well developed thoughts on these matters and I appreciate your input on the thread. I don't really know how much you'd agree or disagree with what I said above and particularly if you're seeing these thing in a direct manner like some people I know that lends its own particular perspective. I think my point in posting this though was something along these lines - dualism as an analytical division within monism seems to make sense (much like Adam and Eve going from a state of having no concept of desirable vs. undesirable and gaining that aptitude) but a real dualism, or even such a disjuncture as what Gnostic Bishop would offer - in my own terms Kether, Chokmah, and Binah distanced enough from Chesed across the abyss to make a demiurge of Chesed or to spawn Crowley's 'black brethren' with Chesed as their launch point (which IMHO he goes too far in condeming Chesed additionally as a sphere of vice or Osirian dying-god ethics as now 'evil') - all of that seems to imply that the Lord of the Universe doesn't know what it's doing or doesn't have a hold of itself. That's why I tend to disagree with Manichean-style dualist Gnosticism, it seems more like a reaction to hard times or environmental stresses than something that's fully thought-out in its implications.