Is committing war crimes in the name of religion justified?

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blauSamstag
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30 Jul 2015, 9:19 pm

No.

War crimes are very hard to justify under any circumstance.

For example i am pretty sure that the bombings of Nagasaki and Dresden were war crimes that my own nation committed.

The bombing of Hiroshima might have been a war crime, and might have been justified. I don't believe the two to be mutually exclusive.

The 2nd siege of Fallujah was an atrocity that my own nation committed, comprising innumerable war crimes. Is whether any of those crimes were justified a meaningful question?



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30 Jul 2015, 9:19 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
If some invisible magical man told me to kill non believers I would question him because I have free will, If he is to smite me for doing so he may as well smite himself because he give me free will and that is his mistake, if he was all powerful would he not be able to carry on the task himself? He should have the power to do so but does not wtf god? You claim to be unloving but have hatred for those who do not believe in you, did you not sacrifice a humsn form of yourself to attone for those who have sinned? Why do you hate those who believe in other gods or do not believe in you at all? You seem to be desperate and insecure and wanting attention to feel important.


I suspect that if God told you to smite the unbeliever, then one of two things is true:

1) This isn't really God doing the talking.
2) God isn't really who he says he is if he demands such a thing.


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blauSamstag
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30 Jul 2015, 9:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
If some invisible magical man told me to kill non believers I would question him because I have free will, If he is to smite me for doing so he may as well smite himself because he give me free will and that is his mistake, if he was all powerful would he not be able to carry on the task himself? He should have the power to do so but does not wtf god? You claim to be unloving but have hatred for those who do not believe in you, did you not sacrifice a humsn form of yourself to attone for those who have sinned? Why do you hate those who believe in other gods or do not believe in you at all? You seem to be desperate and insecure and wanting attention to feel important.


I suspect that if God told you to smite the unbeliever, then one of two things is true:

1) This isn't really God doing the talking.
2) God isn't really who he says he is if he demands such a thing.


Indeed. If there are supernatural beings and they do communicate with us, how are people so sure which of them they are talking to?

From Marcus Aurelius Antoninus' Meditations:

Quote:
"Now departure from the world of men is nothing to fear, if gods exist: because they would not involve you in any harm. If they do not exist, or if they have no care for humankind, then what is life to me in a world devoid of gods, or devoid of providence? But they do exist, and they do care for humankind: and they have put it absolutely in man's power to avoid falling into the true kinds of harm."


Recently there has been a fake quote going around - it may have actually originated on Stormfront of all places, that goes like this:

Quote:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."



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31 Jul 2015, 12:28 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
If some invisible magical man told me to kill non believers I would question him because I have free will, If he is to smite me for doing so he may as well smite himself because he give me free will and that is his mistake, if he was all powerful would he not be able to carry on the task himself? He should have the power to do so but does not wtf god? You claim to be unloving but have hatred for those who do not believe in you, did you not sacrifice a humsn form of yourself to attone for those who have sinned? Why do you hate those who believe in other gods or do not believe in you at all? You seem to be desperate and insecure and wanting attention to feel important.


I suspect that if God told you to smite the unbeliever, then one of two things is true:

1) This isn't really God doing the talking.
2) God isn't really who he says he is if he demands such a thing.


Indeed. If there are supernatural beings and they do communicate with us, how are people so sure which of them they are talking to?

From Marcus Aurelius Antoninus' Meditations:

Quote:
"Now departure from the world of men is nothing to fear, gods exist: because they would not involve you in any harm. If they do not exist, or if they have no care for humankind, then what is life to me in a world devoid of gods, or devoid of providence? But they do exist, and they do care for humankind: and they have put it absolutely in man's power to avoid falling into the true kinds of harm."


Recently there has been a fake quote going around - it may have actually originated on Stormfront of all places, that goes like this:

Quote:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Soo, Satan is F\God and God is Satan? It seems to explain a lot my friend since the book of Job!


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31 Jul 2015, 12:57 am

War for any other purpose but defending ourselves against against aggression is not justified. War is a war crime.



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31 Jul 2015, 1:39 am

Nationalism is a much better reason.

Religion comes in with "kill them all, God knows his own!" Good Christians will just get to meet God sooner.

I am sure when we dropped more bombs on Viet Nam than all sides dropped in WWII, we were careful to not bomb women, children, old people, or civilian property. We only used Napalm and White Phosphorus on military targets. The only war crime was when 300 to 500 civilians were killed in a village and recorded. TV was restricted, and Lt. Cally served three months in the brig. The Viet Cong did not wear uniforms, they were all civilians.

In the war in the Pacific when we took islands there were no survivors. They all chose a heroic death charging into our machine guns and flame throwers. All the civilians killed themselves because the Japanese had told them we were the bad guys. Official Version.

When MacArthur took Manila, he killed half the population doing so, all of the Japanese enlisted, tried 5,000 Officers the next day, and hung them the next.

War is the biggest crime of all, and no living witnesses the best outcome.

These words like War Crimes and Genocide are a recent thing. No army left potential spies and enemies alive.

We made our way from Normandy and Italy to Berlin by throwing a grenade through the window or door before entering a building. We bombed all German cities to rubble, then bombed the rubble. After the war millions of Germans were held in outdoor camps, where millions died. The poison bread helped.

Fifty million dead takes work. The Germans did half of it on the eastern front, the Allies the other half through Europe.

There are historic, economic, political reasons for war. But once it starts, there is nothing but kill everyone between Point A and Point B.

The first victim is truth. A little medical knowledge shows all those people in camps had Typhoid. The rail lines that brought food were bombed. Typhoid turns people to skeletons real quick.

In the Pacific we torpedoed Japanese hospital ships we knew were carrying American prisoners. We had broken the Japanese code early in the war. We knew they were sending prisoners back to japan, we sank them.

We stockpiled poison gas for the invasion of japan, the plan was kill everything, move forward, kill everything.

The Atomic Bomb worked, we only had two. If they had not surrendered, the plan was round the clock bombing with poison gas.

Japan had a million man army in Manchuria, Korea, that we could not reach, they had all the supplies of China. We were going to kill everyone in Japan. When we get finished, the Japanese language will only be spoken in hell.

You would not want a God that tolerated such behavior.



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31 Jul 2015, 3:01 am

Jacoby wrote:
War for any other purpose but defending ourselves against against aggression is not justified. War is a war crime.


That's probably why aggressors usually justify the war by claiming to be, some contrived way or other, defending themselves or some higher values worth killing and dying for.


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31 Jul 2015, 3:14 am

Inventor wrote:
You would not want a God that tolerated such behavior.


God, by definition, is on the side of the victors. They are the ones who get to write history and impose their morals and beliefs.

Edit -- Tpyo.


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Last edited by Spiderpig on 31 Jul 2015, 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Jul 2015, 3:32 am

blauSamstag wrote:
No.

War crimes are very hard to justify under any circumstance.

For example i am pretty sure that the bombings of Nagasaki and Dresden were war crimes that my own nation committed.

The bombing of Hiroshima might have been a war crime, and might have been justified. I don't believe the two to be mutually exclusive.

The 2nd siege of Fallujah was an atrocity that my own nation committed, comprising innumerable war crimes. Is whether any of those crimes were justified a meaningful question?


Dresden was intended to break the will of the civilian populace.

Nuking Nagasaki was because nuking Hiroshima didnt get the point across.

I don't know what your beef is with either of the battles for Fallujah. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.


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31 Jul 2015, 6:02 am

I think the use of white phosphorus in the Second Battle of Fallujah was pretty horrifying



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01 Aug 2015, 1:06 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I think the use of white phosphorus in the Second Battle of Fallujah was pretty horrifying


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus
Quote:
On November 15, 2005, the U.S. Department of Defense confirmed to the BBC that white phosphorus had been used as an incendiary antipersonnel weapon in Fallujah, stating "When you have enemy forces that are in covered positions that your high explosive artillery rounds are not having an impact on and you wish to get them out of those positions, one technique is to fire a white phosphorus round into the position because the combined effects of the fire and smoke – and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground – will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives."


If that's what it takes then so be it. The likely alternative would be sending in troops and losing some of them.


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01 Aug 2015, 8:18 am

If the US were run by aspies, the Department of Defense would be called Department of Aggression.


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01 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
If the US were run by aspies, the Department of Defense would be called Department of Aggression.

No, that just doesnt do enough for me. I like Department of Global Conquest and Oppression better. :D


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01 Aug 2015, 12:12 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
"The Gospel promoted by the sword is not the Gospel." -- Martin Luther
Q: Why did Martin Luther say "You need a bridge to baptize a Jew"?
A: "If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over." -- Martin Luther



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01 Aug 2015, 1:19 pm

Martin Luther was horrifically antisemitic and it's foolish to deny that, but it doesn't negate the rest of his philosophy no more than it does to negate the vast, vast majority of figures throughout history who harbored prejudiced beliefs. Many theologians have echoed the exact same sentiments as Luther (err...as in the first quote, not the violent antisemitism part), all of which is derived mostly from Jesus' words in Matthew (and nobody puts the "J" in Jew like Jesus! :D ).



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01 Aug 2015, 8:59 pm

Raptor wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
No.

War crimes are very hard to justify under any circumstance.

For example i am pretty sure that the bombings of Nagasaki and Dresden were war crimes that my own nation committed.

The bombing of Hiroshima might have been a war crime, and might have been justified. I don't believe the two to be mutually exclusive.

The 2nd siege of Fallujah was an atrocity that my own nation committed, comprising innumerable war crimes. Is whether any of those crimes were justified a meaningful question?


Dresden was intended to break the will of the civilian populace.

Nuking Nagasaki was because nuking Hiroshima didnt get the point across.

I don't know what your beef is with either of the battles for Fallujah. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.


We broke off negotiations before the 2nd battle, not the iraqis.

Men of fighting age were not allowed to leave the city, while women and children were warned to evacuate.

How can we argue that all men in a city are "terrorists" or even "enemy combatants" when we didn't allow any of them to leave or to surrender themselves as peaceful civilians?

Thousands of civilians died in the 2nd siege.

Thousands more were burned with white phosphorous, in violation of UN conventions. This in itself was a war crime.