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Questions about Minimum Wage Increase

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Aspiegaming
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12 Jan 2017, 4:36 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Just because the minimum wage is increased, doesn't mean the employee is better off.

Employers could compensate by:
-cutting hours
-cut/eliminate 401k contributions (retirement savings)
-lowering sick and vacation time
-cutting back on employee bonuses
-cutting employee perks

Also, Seattle business groups are saying that the $15 minimum is causing some people to no longer qualify for welfare.

Whatever it takes for an employer to increase and/or keep his own pay higher and profits too.


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13 Jan 2017, 4:07 am

BTDT wrote:
There is a tendency to view wages as a zero sum game, in which there is a fixed amount of money to be distributed among everyone.

This is wrong. Giving the lowest paid workers a living wage allows them to take care of their families and maintain a much better standard of health. Better health helps everyone. The best way to stop disease is to prevent it from breaking out in the first place. And with less disease there is less of a burden on medical services.


Then why not subsidize low wage earners rather than mandate a higher minimum wage? Isn't the welfare of the citizens more a job for the state? Forcing people to pay more for low skilled labor is basically a tax on people who employ unskilled workers, which doesn't seem right and is likely to have adverse consequences.


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13 Jan 2017, 2:29 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
Questions about Minimum Wage Increase

1. How would an increase affect inflation?
2. Would other income levels go up complimentary?

There's just so many facets, to this issue.....

I think the whole idea of why people want increased wages, is to get AHEAD----NOT just "break even" (IF they've been lucky enough, to even be doing THAT)----and, of course, I can totally understand that, as I've been going crazy, trying to get ahead, MYSELF!! In reality, though, I don't think that's the way it'll work.

I agree with those who have said that the increased wages will only increase the prices of goods and services----and, if companies ONLY increased prices enough to MAINTAIN current profit levels, then maybe, theoretically, workers could still claim a gain; but, I don't think companies will do that. IMO, they'll probably be like: "Well, since we're gonna raise the prices, ANYWAY, we might-as-well include the "regular" increase in prices that we make, every year, while we're at it", and then that margin of workers' gain has just shrunk, even more. If companies would just "have-a-heart", and NOT increase prices----I mean, c'mon, if you've already got a NET profit of BILLIONS, why do you need billions, MORE----but, they won't do that.

Also, it's the Mom and Pops, that are going to be hurting the MOST, IMO, in this. They're not making BILLIONS, and afforded the tax cuts, for instance, that are afforded to big corporations----oftentimes, they're only making enough, to live comfortably, and maybe have a savings account, and a retirement plan, IF they're SUPER lucky. They'll have to cut workers, possibly, to pay for the workers with seniority (say, workers that have been there 6-months-to-a-year, might have to be cut so that workers who have been working there for 2 years can be paid, what will be required by law); and then, you've got people out of jobs----and, they won't be able to go anywhere ELSE to get a job, cuz THOSE companies, have just let-go of THEIR workers.

As for OTHER income levels having to go up, to compliment the increases: It seems, likely. IMO, prices will be increased, across-the-board----so, for instance, when someone who is just-above the 15 dollars an hour, and is a little ahead-in-the-game, has to start only breaking even, they're gonna want their wages increased, so that they can maintain the living at which they've become accustomed; and then, prices will go UP again (ahead of the "normal" annual increases).

The WHOLE thing, is a vicious cycle!!




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Last edited by Campin_Cat on 13 Jan 2017, 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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13 Jan 2017, 2:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Then why not subsidize low wage earners rather than mandate a higher minimum wage? Isn't the welfare of the citizens more a job for the state? Forcing people to pay more for low skilled labor is basically a tax on people who employ unskilled workers, which doesn't seem right and is likely to have adverse consequences.


As I see it, subsidizing workers puts us on the slippery slope of a welfare state, in which everyone ends up with a guaranteed income, whether they work or not. As I see it, this is too politically unpopular for either mainstream party to adopt at this point in time--or even to suggest it as a goal for the future.

As a practical matter, who is going to pay for the subsidy? A lot of state governments are actually in the red right now--there is no surplus for funding subsidies.

A minimum wage does have the advantage of being more resistant to scammers and outright fraud. Most employers are pretty good at making sure that they aren't paying fake or dead people. It is a bit harder for governments to be sure that relatives aren't cashing checks for the deceased.



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13 Jan 2017, 3:38 pm

BTDT wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Then why not subsidize low wage earners rather than mandate a higher minimum wage? Isn't the welfare of the citizens more a job for the state? Forcing people to pay more for low skilled labor is basically a tax on people who employ unskilled workers, which doesn't seem right and is likely to have adverse consequences.

As I see it, subsidizing workers puts us on the slippery slope of a welfare state, in which everyone ends up with a guaranteed income, whether they work or not.

Yeah, I can definitely see how this could happen. What would ever be the incentive to get a better job, so that one could care for their family, WITHOUT spongin'?




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16 Jan 2017, 5:26 pm

Sabreclaw wrote:
People love to sneer and spit at those involved in "unskilled" jobs, but does anyone care to explain how the people doing those jobs are supposed to move on to better things when they're paid scraps?


That was my point, exactly. And with an increased minimum wage, those low skilled workers will have more buying power, thus growing the economy for everyone.


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16 Jan 2017, 5:29 pm

EzraS wrote:
I know someone who works in Seattle who just got a letter saying his pay was going to increase to $15 per hour.
He also got a letter from his landlord saying his rent was going up an extra $300 per month. Find a cheaper place? They all raised their rents to that level. Coincidence?


How is that landlord affected in any way by the wage hike, save by thinking he can become more predatory in enforcing rent?


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16 Jan 2017, 7:17 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Questions about Minimum Wage Increase

1. How would an increase affect inflation?
2. Would other income levels go up complimentary?


The WHOLE thing, is a vicious cycle!!

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it as well. Even as an evil hardhearted conservative (a label I truly enjoy :D )I'd actually like to see people make a living wage. However, making employers pay considerably more will only precipitate higher prices for whatever they offer and/or make fewer people do more work after employers lay off people to compensate for having to pay out more in earnings.
It's a s**t sandwich no matter how you slice it.


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16 Jan 2017, 8:26 pm

In my industry, there's also the threat of automation if the wage gets too exorbitant. There's a wide variety of chopping, peeling, and slicing machines out there that can really speed up the prepping process, but are expensive, until the rising cost of labor starts making them more attractive to restaurant owners. True, they can't replace trained cooks and chefs as far as the final cooking and plating goes, but they can certainly cut into the pantry and prep cooks who keep the industry running, which is doubly troubling in that those jobs have traditionally been the training ground for aspiring chefs.


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18 Jan 2017, 4:46 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I know someone who works in Seattle who just got a letter saying his pay was going to increase to $15 per hour.
He also got a letter from his landlord saying his rent was going up an extra $300 per month. Find a cheaper place? They all raised their rents to that level. Coincidence?

How is that landlord affected in any way by the wage hike, save by thinking he can become more predatory in enforcing rent?

Surely, you're not serious, in asking this question!! The way the landlord is affected, is by an overhead increase----he, now, has to pay more to property management, grounds-keeping, maintenance, etc.




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18 Jan 2017, 4:52 pm

Raptor wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Questions about Minimum Wage Increase

1. How would an increase affect inflation?
2. Would other income levels go up complimentary?


The WHOLE thing, is a vicious cycle!!

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it as well. Even as an evil hardhearted conservative (a label I truly enjoy :D )I'd actually like to see people make a living wage. However, making employers pay considerably more will only precipitate higher prices for whatever they offer and/or make fewer people do more work after employers lay off people to compensate for having to pay out more in earnings.
It's a s**t sandwich no matter how you slice it.

EXACTLY!!




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18 Jan 2017, 5:12 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I know someone who works in Seattle who just got a letter saying his pay was going to increase to $15 per hour.
He also got a letter from his landlord saying his rent was going up an extra $300 per month. Find a cheaper place? They all raised their rents to that level. Coincidence?

How is that landlord affected in any way by the wage hike, save by thinking he can become more predatory in enforcing rent?

Surely, you're not serious, in asking this question!! The way the landlord is affected, is by an overhead increase----he, now, has to pay more to property management, grounds-keeping, maintenance, etc.


Okay, but the landlord wouldn't be so hardpressed if he or she had paid the people filling those jobs a decent wage already.


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18 Jan 2017, 6:16 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How is that landlord affected in any way by the wage hike, save by thinking he can become more predatory in enforcing rent?

Surely, you're not serious, in asking this question!! The way the landlord is affected, is by an overhead increase----he, now, has to pay more to property management, grounds-keeping, maintenance, etc.

Okay, but the landlord wouldn't be so hardpressed if he or she had paid the people filling those jobs a decent wage already.

Sure, he would----cuz, now there's ALSO an increase in contractor's fees, for when he needs a tree cut-down on his property, or a parking lot re-paved, or whatever, cuz those people have ALSO raised their prices, to meet the demand of the new wages, for THEIR people.




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18 Jan 2017, 7:11 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How is that landlord affected in any way by the wage hike, save by thinking he can become more predatory in enforcing rent?

Surely, you're not serious, in asking this question!! The way the landlord is affected, is by an overhead increase----he, now, has to pay more to property management, grounds-keeping, maintenance, etc.

Okay, but the landlord wouldn't be so hardpressed if he or she had paid the people filling those jobs a decent wage already.

Sure, he would----cuz, now there's ALSO an increase in contractor's fees, for when he needs a tree cut-down on his property, or a parking lot re-paved, or whatever, cuz those people have ALSO raised their prices, to meet the demand of the new wages, for THEIR people.


Well, think of the wage hike as a long term investment, in which everyone will have more buying power in the future. Makes a lot more sense than tax cuts for the wealthy that puts money into bank accounts, and not recycled into the economy.


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18 Jan 2017, 10:13 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Okay, but the landlord wouldn't be so hardpressed if he or she had paid the people filling those jobs a decent wage already.

Sure, he would----cuz, now there's ALSO an increase in contractor's fees, for when he needs a tree cut-down on his property, or a parking lot re-paved, or whatever, cuz those people have ALSO raised their prices, to meet the demand of the new wages, for THEIR people.

Well, think of the wage hike as a long term investment, in which everyone will have more buying power in the future.

What long-term investment----the turnover in retail and fast-food, for instance, is VERY high, cuz it's a TERRIBLE drudgery----and no, most people still won't be staying longer, if they're getting paid better, cuz they won't have "more buying power", cuz everybody else will be raising their prices for goods and services; and then, also, their rent, electricity, phone, cable, etc., will go-up, cuz EVERYBODY will be needing to cover the additional overhead, caused by the increase in wages. Basically, they'll be no better-off, than they were, before.




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19 Jan 2017, 12:40 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Okay, but the landlord wouldn't be so hardpressed if he or she had paid the people filling those jobs a decent wage already.

Sure, he would----cuz, now there's ALSO an increase in contractor's fees, for when he needs a tree cut-down on his property, or a parking lot re-paved, or whatever, cuz those people have ALSO raised their prices, to meet the demand of the new wages, for THEIR people.

Well, think of the wage hike as a long term investment, in which everyone will have more buying power in the future.

What long-term investment----the turnover in retail and fast-food, for instance, is VERY high, cuz it's a TERRIBLE drudgery----and no, most people still won't be staying longer, if they're getting paid better, cuz they won't have "more buying power", cuz everybody else will be raising their prices for goods and services; and then, also, their rent, electricity, phone, cable, etc., will go-up, cuz EVERYBODY will be needing to cover the additional overhead, caused by the increase in wages. Basically, they'll be no better-off, than they were, before.


While there is in some cases of turnover in fast food to bigger and better things, in many others, people simply stick with it because there is no other employment, or because bosses are way too picky about who they hire, or because they lack education or skills for anything beyond fast food. I've had friends who have worked fast food jobs for years, and had barely been able to squeak out a living doing it. The notion that no one stays in those jobs very long is a Republican myth meant to be used against raising the minimum wage, when in fact reality of the situation doesn't fit the facts.


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