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Vigilans
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08 Mar 2011, 10:21 pm

Carl Sagan among others believes an Orion style project will likely be where most of the nuclear stockpiles end up, assuming we don't bomb the s**t out of ourselves first


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TheKing
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08 Mar 2011, 10:24 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
This is completely unrelated to the interstellar travel side-topic (and even less related to Humanism), but I followed that link for ICAN-II, because I hadn't heard of that one before. It sounds like it would be a feasible way to get to Mars, certainly. But wouldn't it be better just to use a VASIMR engine and a 200MW source of electricity? It would take about 10 more days, but it would be a lot safer and politically I'd think it would be easier too. Personally, I suspect that it will be VASIMR that will be used for most interplanetary travel, at least for most of this century.


maybe but any efficient way i would support lol


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TheKing
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08 Mar 2011, 10:25 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Carl Sagan among others believes an Orion style project will likely be where most of the nuclear stockpiles end up, assuming we don't bomb the sh** out of ourselves first


as i said in an earlier post in this topic if our barbaric, savage, self destructive nature doesnt manke humanity go extinct lol


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08 Mar 2011, 10:42 pm

@Vigilans: What you say about detonating the bombs far away is quite true, of course. But I strongly suspect you are being too rational for politicians here. Detonating nuclear bombs in space is a tetchy subject in general--even if it's nowhere near Earth, you'll have to carry them from some inhabited location, and transporting nuclear stuff is, rational or not, something people don't like to think about. The other thing is, it would take a huge amount of effort to carry these thousands or millions of nuclear bombs out to a sufficient distance. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be very difficult.

As for the thing about someone other than the US doing it. The thing is, all democracies tend to have short sighted political goals. And, as we are seeing in the Middle East right now, democracy only seems to be spreading. The only country I can see that might be able to try interstellar travel, with people on board, would be China. They have a non-Democratic regime, the technological prowess, and the wealth that such an enterprise would require. However, they probably don't have enough nuclear bombs. And by the time we have all of the life support technology ready, there is no guarantee that they won't have a democracy too.

As for the part about there always being people willing to go, despite the danger, I agree with you. I wouldn't go myself, but I'm sure there'd be lots of people out there who would.



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09 Mar 2011, 4:20 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
@Vigilans: What you say about detonating the bombs far away is quite true, of course. But I strongly suspect you are being too rational for politicians here. Detonating nuclear bombs in space is a tetchy subject in general--even if it's nowhere near Earth, you'll have to carry them from some inhabited location, and transporting nuclear stuff is, rational or not, something people don't like to think about. The other thing is, it would take a huge amount of effort to carry these thousands or millions of nuclear bombs out to a sufficient distance. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be very difficult.

As for the thing about someone other than the US doing it. The thing is, all democracies tend to have short sighted political goals. And, as we are seeing in the Middle East right now, democracy only seems to be spreading. The only country I can see that might be able to try interstellar travel, with people on board, would be China. They have a non-Democratic regime, the technological prowess, and the wealth that such an enterprise would require. However, they probably don't have enough nuclear bombs. And by the time we have all of the life support technology ready, there is no guarantee that they won't have a democracy too.

As for the part about there always being people willing to go, despite the danger, I agree with you. I wouldn't go myself, but I'm sure there'd be lots of people out there who would.


thats why project Orion failed during The Cold War even though it would have costed the same amount as Project Apollo and gotten us to pluto while Apollo only got us to Luna it failed because low public iopinion on nukes because the Cold War so the government didnt want to fund a project with such low public appproval rates

though even today Freeman Dyon the creator of it and world famous Mathmatician and Physicist says its a very sound plan that can work if proper attention is given to it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar ... bomb.shtml

im at school right now so i cant get to actual documentary but it is on youtube thats the first place i saw this particular documentary


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09 Mar 2011, 4:27 pm

"The extraordinary yet true account of a secret US government-backed attempt to build a spaceship the size of an ocean liner and send it to Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, propelled by thousands of miniature nuclear bombs.

Beginning in 1958 Project Orion ran until 1965, employing some of the best scientists in the world, including the brilliant British mathematician and physicist Freeman Dyson. "Freeman Dyson is one of the few authentic geniuses I've ever met", says Arthur C. Clarke. "Orion isn't crazy. It would work. The question isn't whether we could do it, but whether we should do it"."

an excerpt from it


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10 Mar 2011, 8:33 am

AstroGeek wrote:
I notice that a lot of Aspies are atheists, so I wondered if anyone identified as a Humanist as well. Some of you might fit all of the traits, but not be familiar with the term, so here's a quick quote from Wikipedia (taken from a Humanist website I think) which gives brief explanation:
Quote:
Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism#Tenets



I will drink to that.

ruveyn



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10 Mar 2011, 4:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AstroGeek wrote:
I notice that a lot of Aspies are atheists, so I wondered if anyone identified as a Humanist as well. Some of you might fit all of the traits, but not be familiar with the term, so here's a quick quote from Wikipedia (taken from a Humanist website I think) which gives brief explanation:
Quote:
Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism#Tenets



I will drink to that.

ruveyn


In 4 years I will join you! or if i go to Germany


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phil777
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11 Mar 2011, 12:56 am

I consider myself somewhat of a humanist, yes. <.< I fit the description rather well, except that i'm leaving the door open to supernatural occurances, if we ever get hard proof regarding them and have them go through the same battery of tests we do with anything else that should be considered a science.



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11 Mar 2011, 1:55 am

Chevand wrote:
PJW wrote:
The problem with humanism, as it arose in the mid-nineteenth century, literarily espoused by both Dickens and Thackeray, is its inherent contradiction.

The only difference between humanism and socialism is who benefits. In socialism, no one benefits. In humanism, someone benefits. Why? Under socialism, no one, no individual, exists, therefore privation is the norm. Under humanism, an individual might exist, but he only benefits under the beneficence, and then directly, of an external agency set up for his, and his only, benefit. There is no philanthropic underpinning. Therefore, for all of Scrooge's wasting his wealth, there was no value-adding, resulting in no furthering of society for wealth, once spent, is gone, whereas when invested, under, I don't know, Objectivism, creates more wealth for the endowment it represents.

Tiny Tim is the problem with the world. We love him, not for himself, but for his ability to emotionally manipulate us.


And the problem with Randian Objectivism is that it glorifies animalistic selfishness, and denies the interconnectivity of all people. Society is an implicit contract; in exchange for certain rights and privileges, you've got responsibilities toward your fellow society-dwellers (such as, you know, respecting their rights). You can try as hard as you like, but take it from a hardened, cynical Aspie with misanthropic tendencies such as myself-- realistically, nothing you do, short of moving to the Gobi Desert or building your own rocket and blasting yourself to Mars, will ever sever your ties to other people or your societal obligations completely.

Maybe it sounds appealing to you, to try to live without or in spite of others. I don't know. I, for one, believe it is a cold and hollow way to live.


Randian Objectivism promotes -rational- selfishness. And Rand was far from original.

R. Hillel once said:

If I am not for myself who is for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, then when?

Hillel lived about 2200 years ago.

Rand also was a major fan of Aristotle and embraced much of Aristotle's thinking in the Nicomachian Ethics.

I am not a "Randian" Objectivist because I think the movement that Rand started devolved into a kind of cult. I am not peachy keen on cults. But I accept the basic idea that things are what they are and that physical reality exists independent of of wishes, whims and feelings.

ruveyn



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11 Mar 2011, 10:29 am

phil777 wrote:
I consider myself somewhat of a humanist, yes. <.< I fit the description rather well, except that i'm leaving the door open to supernatural occurances, if we ever get hard proof regarding them and have them go through the same battery of tests we do with anything else that should be considered a science.


But if a supernatural explanation went through all of those tests then we would be developing some sort of scientific understanding about it. Thus it would not longer be supernatural, but a hitherto unkown natural phenomenon.