assimilation vs. integration

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I have used the term Zionist to describe myself once on this board. And if you know that I have done so, then you have also read the post. Let's bring it forward shall we?

http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts106631-start105.html



So where is the support for ethnonationalism? Here, embedded within my "proclamation" of Zionism lies my belief in a multicultural Israel. (And my disappointment at the loss of a multicultural Lebanon). Where is the hypocrisy you so self-righteously claim?

I leave it to the rest of the board to judge whether your remarks are worthy of notice.

true it shouldnt be a suicide pact, but at the moment in denmark we already have some very strict immigration laws for everyone outside the EU.
it is basically a scoring system where different factors give you different amounts of "points", if you have enough points you're in, if not you're out.
factors are things like speaking danish, education, family ties in denmark, assets, job offers etc. etc.
now i dont have a big problem with this as it weeds out a large part of immigrants who dont want to integrate.

in denmark we have some very odd statistics for crime relating to immigrants.
in the age group 14-26 immigrants commit (or get caught) 17% more often than a native.
in all other age groups it is pretty much similar.
now if you cross reference that by income you will find that danish people in the same income group as most immigrants in denmark has a similar crime rate.
and if you take another financial group, where people have above average income then the danish middle aged men quite simply blow the immigrants out of the water with a much higher crime rate.

so crime is relative to a lot of things, not just genome.
i do however agree that extremists have no place in most western countries (of any creed or religion).

she is right that we have some gang troubles in and around the ghettos, mainly involving young people.
but i think that things like this primarily come from the enviroment these ghettos produce.
if you could integrate them into the danish society instead of using social pressure to push them to the ghettos, then i think most of the crime not caused by extremist views could be mitigated.

I have been following all the news about the earthquake in Japan
What impressed me is how calm and helpful the people are.

A million people stuck in Tokyo and they are still standing around calmly and bowing to each other.

Where is the panic? Where is the looting? Where are the people fighting each other to get on a bus?

The Japanese see themselves as a tribe or one extended family.

But a lot of Western liberal idiots think that Japan would somehow be "improved" by bringing in a few million uneducated, low IQ violent, Muslim Sudanese who have never worn shoes or used a flush toilet.

We might be willing to destroy our own cultures and countries, but don't don't blame the Japanese for not being that stupid.

wait... what??

all i said is we have similar issues in the problem with a large aging population and a smaller generation to take care of them, i blamed them for nothing

if i gave that impression im sorry, but it wasnt my intention.

So you are saying it is fine for Israel to behave like a nation state because it is a nation state, but behaving like a nation state is "not the answer" for Denmark because it is a citizen-state?

This is just just sophistry. Power determines how states define themselves and what "answers" they can apply to their own internal issues. The Jews in 1948 had the power to expel hundreds of thousands of Arabs and set up a Jewish state, and they did so. If you want to appeal to other criteria in determining how states should behave, I can point out now that Denmark was a homogenous nation/kingdom for hundreds of years before the founding of Israel, and even now has fewer non-Danes than Israel has non-Jews.

No, there embedded within your "proclamation" of Zionism lies a fact (the fact that Arabs sit in the Knesset) that does not contradict the fact that Zionist Israel is a Jewish state and was conceived as such, and that Zionism is support for a Jewish national homeland. It is perfectly natural for Jews to want their own homeland. I am sorry if I took your proclamation of Zionism to be a proclamation of Zionism. If you actually support the multiculturalization of Israel instead, then fine - I am still not going to support the multiculturalization of the West. (PS - Lebanon is a different country, and not relevant to the subject at hand.)



Fine by me.

They have a right to specify rules and enforce them via legal statute. However they have no right to specify customs . A world with government mandated custom is not one in which i wish to live. It's a tradition in this country to Morris Dance. Are we really saying that all citizens should learn how? Once you have government mandated custom the situation has the potential to become ludicrous.

The contracting population is not the problem. The problem is a refusal on the part of certain governments to slash their bloated budgets. Rather than cut state spending, governments want to import foreigners from the third-world to make up for their shrinking tax base. In practice, this makes the tax burden on productive citizens greater because most of the foreigners wind up unemployed on state assistance.

Japan and other nations with below replacement-level birthrates will just have smaller populations in the future. If that's such a big deal, then they can cut defense spending, universal health care, and state employees. Or they could create incentives for the native population to have more children. There's no need to import unassimilable third-worlders.



The distinction can be altered at the stroke of a pen. If Japan allowed non-Japanese foreigners to become full citizens Japan would magically become a citizen-state. It's an arbitrary distinction. Either way the Japanese nation would exist.



The country's identity is shaped by the majority. Most Danish citizens are ethnic Danes. The laws, customs, and language of Denmark reflect the country's ethnic composition. They do not speak arabic and live under Sharia law, but they may if arab Muslims are ever the majority. Arab Muslims will never be Danes; not only is that physically impossible (they are a different race), like most non-white immigrants they want to enjoy their host country's standard of living while clinging to their customs. Most groups are like that. For example, blacks and whites have lived together in America for over 200 years and they have two entirely separate cultures. Life in a black neighborhood is radically different from life in a white neighborhood. Likewise, life in a Muslim neighborhood is different than life in a white European neighborhood. That will never change. The only thing that will change is the size of the ethnic populations.

Japan has virtually no defense spending. The U.S. carries that burden for Japan. Japan has a good system of health care (better than that of the U.S.). It would be nifty and a blessing if the U.S. would cut its defense spending and divert those funds to renewing and properly maintaining our infrastructure which is crumbling. The Romans had a better approach. They kept their roads in good repair so their army could march easily upon them. We don't do that.

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 20 Mar 2011, 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

The minimum for a nation state to be a nation state are borders, language and a common culture. Anything else will just be a confederation of communities. That's why as a multi-ethnic nation, we should encourage a "melting pot" type society rather than many cultures.

BTW, if you're a White American, you shouldn't try to demand a "white" nation-state because there is no monolithic "white" culture except one that was created in the USA because of needed cultural blending. If you're a white American, you're probably some hodgepodge of Irish, English, Scandinavian, Italian or German. You know nothing about your native heritage because your parents, unlike you if you're a white nationalist, decided to blend into the general American culture which is a hodge podge of Native American, Ashkenazi, English, Irish, Scottish, Italian, Scandinavian, French, German, West African and Latin American influences. How often do you go out with some leiderhosen, a derby hat and suit or a beret without somebody looking at you oddly? Chances are, you wear jeans and a t-shirt when you go out. Jeans were invented by a Jew and t-shirts were originally worn without shirts by Italian immigrants. Look at what you usually eat for dinner on a given night.

This is what I had for dinner for the past 3 days that can't be considered "Ethnic food": Pizza, amber beer, mustard greens, beans and rice and for breakfast, I had hash browns. Pizza's Italian, amber beer is German, beans and rice stems from Mexico, mustard greens are African-American and hash browns are from an Italian-American. You probably had a bagel for breakfast or went to KFC for lunch recently. You probably listen to heavy metal or country music (Heavy metal is heavily influenced by blues, country music features guitars, which were invented by Black Moors). Your daily conversation probably include a few Yiddish slang loanwords, such as "kitsch, "schmuck", or "putz". To try to suggest a "White America" would be like trying to suggest a non-alcoholic Sex on The Beach without pineapple juice. It's just not going to happen.

I'm using an anecdotal example of how most anti-immigration drum pounders ideas on immigrants not assimilating is flawed.

For example, I'm a first generation immigrant to the USA. My dad was mostly mulatto and my mom is a mulatto/Asian Indian mix. You couldn't tell I came from another country if you talked to me though. I talk like an Upper Midwesterner which is what all my friends were. None of my kids will know about their Indian grandfather because by the time I have children, my grandfather would have passed on. My kids will make fun of Grandma's music, which they would say "sound like church bells". My kids will also probably think my cooking is "weird". And that's just two generations of assimilation. All my kids will know is that their skin's a bit different colored than their friends and their mom and dad are horrible ice skaters compared to them because most of their friends are other Americans. They will probably play football in the autumntime with their best friend Mohamed. They would probably sneak out to play hockey with the rough Gutierrez brothers before their chores. They'll probably try to get their first kiss from Mikayla Grenwald (Fictional name) and I'll have to have a little discussion with Michael and Rosita Grenwald. That's the world we live in today. That's the world I lived in back when I lived in a racially integrated part of town so it's not that different for me. BTW, before you call me some hippy dippy flower child liberal, I voted for Bush and McCain for president and I voted for Tim Pawlenty for governor. Twice.

Sorry, your white nationalist propaganda doesn't fly in the face of people who have actually been around other races besides for their own on a day to day, interactive basis. Take it back to Drizzlefront and the hillbillies who never seen a black person in their entire lives except when they turn on the TV to watch BET and the Final Four.

Beat me to it..

Moving around is what humans do. Foul your nest, move on west.

But humans claim parts of the earth for themselves, their children and their friends. That is the origin if property. Humans set bounds and they become hostile if their bounds are ignored.

ruveyn

some humans seem more defensive of these boundries than others though.

I reject your second and third premise.

There is absolutely no requirement that a nation state have a common language. There are numerous states that are undeniably nation states in which there are multiple official and de facto languages. If we allow for official languages in subordinate territories, the number becomes even larger.

Now there are some cases where secondary official languages are spoken by a minority who, by and large, speak the primary language. For example, most Gaelic speakers in Eire also speak English. But there are also genuininely multilingual states. Canada is a case in point--not only are there two official languages, but there are significant populations who exclusively use one or the other official language as their language of daily living and can do so without knowing the other langauge. Belgium, India, Israel and Switzerland are other examples.

Similarly, the term common culture is far too loose. There is no single common culture in the United States--at the heart of regionalism lies cultural diversity. I suggest to you that New Englanders have far more common culture with Maritimers, and people in the Pacific Northwest have far more common culture with British Columbians than they have common culture with each other. (And vice versa). Almost all large national states are composed of aggregations of diverse communities: "the British" are an amalgam of at least three nationalities, English, Scottish and Welsh, and even within these broad definitions there is wide diversity.

The only requirement of a nation state of it's population should be that it follows the law. That's it. Even then it may be desirable to willfully ignore an unjust, unethical or abhorrent law.

Fortunately these days (most) won't chase you out with pointy sticks, they'll deport you instead. Tribalism 2.0