Why do we [dis]like Carl Sagan?

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ruveyn
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22 Jun 2011, 2:29 pm

Sand wrote:

Each culture has its "bad habits" and its good ones. Our own included.

Indeed. Nothing human s perfect.

ruveyn

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22 Jun 2011, 2:41 pm

Philologos wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

I like the guy and I find the fact he was stoned off his gourd half the time endearing.
And not all that uncommon for mathematicians and physicists in my professional acquaintance.

Sand is not what his head is buried in, I fear.

I find Sagan and Chomsky [very differently] problematic. You find Chomsky and Sagan [likely also differently] to be positives. I have no reason to hold either of those opinions against you, and trust you will not hold mine against me. In fact, I have little against anyone who has open eyes, ears that work, a willingness to talk rather than dictate or spew, and a touch with a quip.

As for Sagan, what he ingested in what proportions, so he did no harm, I should care. He is what he is, and what I have seen of the pentadactyl herb's effects tends to indicate that like alcohol it brings out what you are, whether peacenik or assassin, more often than putting someone else in,

Both substances are not unknown to linguists, historians, lit types of MY professional acquaintance. I knew one historian in particular who was more often sloshed than not - he being of a pre-herbal generation - in the lecture hall or not, and the only way to tell was he was or was he weren't was to count the empties.

First I've ever seen Sagan and Chomsky in the same sentence. I find them to be very different people in very different fields, and not a fan of the latter since his anti-zionism veers into anti-semitism at times.

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22 Jun 2011, 3:36 pm

Cornflake wrote:

dionysian wrote:

At least he's not Brian Cox.

+1
He's like a Carl Sagan concentrate, but without a Kermit the frog voice.

He also has the ability to travel to different continents in split seconds and to magically appear on top of a mountain whilst looking like a member of Oasis.

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22 Jun 2011, 3:56 pm

I for one enjoyed watching his TV series many years ago "Cosmos" I bought the book too. He was inspirational and a good communicator and populariser of science. I liked him a lot.

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ruveyn
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22 Jun 2011, 6:44 pm

dionysian wrote:

At least he's not Brian Cox.

Brian Cox is a lot of fun and he is not full of himself, as was Carl Sagan.

Here is funny Brian Cox spoof which cannot be distinguished from the real Brian Cox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhn8j7S4uKU

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 23 Jun 2011, 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Jun 2011, 6:54 pm

Philologos wrote:

Sagan as astronomer I know nothing about. I have not read his stuff, I have not asked astronomers about him, I should know astronomers? But Sagan the "science popularizer and science communicator" - him I know, and I know full well that I like him no more than the rhymester liked Dr. Fell or Martial [ah, Martial, wit for the ages, why doesn't HE post here] liked his associate.

So, you are making an uninformed opinion about someone you don't know of nor read anything he wrote? Ok.

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Subotai
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22 Jun 2011, 8:30 pm

Philologos wrote:

Some will know him only by reputation if at all, fine, but I would love to hear from thpose who have experienced him in whatever medium.
It always amazes me when people quote him positively, or claim to have been inspired. Yes I know it takes all types and anything is possible, but it shocks me.

Sagan as astronomer I know nothing about. I have not read his stuff, I have not asked astronomers about him, I should know astronomers? But Sagan the "science popularizer and science communicator" - him I know, and I know full well that I like him no more than the rhymester liked Dr. Fell or Martial [ah, Martial, wit for the ages, why doesn't HE post here] liked his associate.

Why not:

He is just too unhousebroken puppy EAGER. Enthusiastic, you know? Jumping up and down, wagging his tail, panting and yipping incessantly, "The Cosmows, the Cosmows, the Cosmows" [and now nearly everybody and absolutely everybody involved with the media SAYS "cosmows"!].

A bit of refined enthusiasm talking about a new and interesting concept is fine. But anybody older than 6 yrs who bleats "Ooh, the Cosmos!" or "Ooh, Picasso" - even pronouncing correctly - is one of THEM - and I cannot be comfortable around them.

A bit more info, a bit less awe, Carl - if it is really awe inspiring, we don't need cheerleaders.

That was just his personality, what else could he be? He was seriously inspired by the vastness of the universe and his enthusiasm was infectious to many.

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22 Jun 2011, 8:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Each culture has its "bad habits" and its good ones. Our own included.

Indeed. Nothing human s perfect.

ruveyn

We still have slavery, we just outsource it!

Philologos
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23 Jun 2011, 12:42 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

Philologos wrote:

So, you are making an uninformed opinion about someone you don't know of nor read anything he wrote? Ok.

NO - Read my lips, Vexillifer.

I just said I am NOT making an opinion about him.

I said - THINK, it is not that hard - I do not like him, I find it hard to listen to him.

The available statements on his work suggest he was probably pretty good. Fine. I'm not qualified to judge, but those who are seem to think he is okay.

But his onscreen presence was agony to me. Okay?

There are people I quite like who are - frankly - incompetent.

There are very great scholars and business people and philanthropists who are unbearable.

Two separate categories. Have you got that?

------------

Now a few practical illustrations:

Feynman - I am not qualified to judge his work, but I really like his personality and style of expression

Welmers [http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/general/obits/welmers.htm if you never heard of him] - I am qualified to judge his work, which is good] AND I like his personality and style

Sagan - I am not qualified to judge his work, but though I believe him sincere I find his personality and style hard to take.

Chomsky - I am qualified to judge his work, which is very problematic. Though I have recently been persuaded that he is sincere I find his personality and style offensive.

I hope that is clear enough.

Imapanda
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23 Jun 2011, 2:16 pm

Anyone who doesn't like Carl Sagan isn't human.

I mean, how can someone watch this without tearing up at least a little? This guy was an inspirational god, regardless of what political boundaries he leaned towards.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY59wZdCDo0[/youtube]

ruveyn
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23 Jun 2011, 2:20 pm

Imapanda wrote:

Arrrrggggg! Bullsh*t!

Humans are Primates version 2.0. We are the Smartest Baddest Apes in the Zoo.

ruveyn

Sand
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23 Jun 2011, 7:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Imapanda wrote:

Arrrrggggg! Bullsh*t!

Humans are Primates version 2.0. We are the Smartest Baddest Apes in the Zoo.

ruveyn

Now,now, ruveyn, humans vary. Don't judge everybody by your own instincts. You seem rather singular.

Philologos
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23 Jun 2011, 8:20 pm

Imapanda wrote:

Well, thank you kindly. If you havde any guess as to what species I am, I would be glad to hear it. The people who SAID they were my parents are human, and I look mighty like various members of the family, but maybe I am on the wrong planet.

I have no idea what his politics might be, and frankly that is of no relevance to what I think of him or how I react to him Word is he was a serious and respectable scientist, for which I will gladly respect him. I always figured he was sincere, not a hypocrite or other type swine.

But - I am a theist, but he is not my god.

He never came close to tearing me up - just made me wonder how you could be like that..

I would never call Charles de Foucauld a god - and he would not have liked it - but I probably think of him much as you think of Sagan. But I do not require that you like him.

naturalplastic
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24 Jun 2011, 10:57 am

ruveyn wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Was alive in the seventies and saw his original "Cosmos" series on TV.
Easy to make fun of his mannerisms, but I dont remember anything truly dislikeable about him.
Kind of geek's geek. Whats not to like?
experienced him books, a Q and A column in the paper, and on Johnny Carson, as well.

Carl Sagan made me laugh. Every time he said "stuhr stuff" or "billyuns and billyuns" I had a good laugh. Also I shared his favorable impression of the Dutch and the were in the days of Huygens.

I found his simpering over the Library of Alexandria quite comical. He admired the Hellenes and the Ancient Greeks quite a bit. Unfortunately he overlooked their bad habits --- like slavery .

ruveyn

I remember that fine episode. Aparently you did not pay very close attention to it.
He praised the Greeks for their learning but he inserted the damning critique that "the books in the alexandria library were full of commentaries on the cosmos but not comentaries on the justice of slavery-and thats part of why the civilization fell"...something to that effect. In that very episode Sagan DID what you are saying he didnt do.

Philologos
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24 Jun 2011, 11:42 am

If conscience makes cowards of us all, memory makes fools of us all. I likely saw the episode but it to my memory might never have happened.

simon_says
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24 Jun 2011, 12:04 pm

The world needs skilled science popularizers. He was very good at that.

OTOH, we have more than our fair share of shills for faith. Any convict can emerge from prison as a newly minted preacher.

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