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Ancalagon
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25 Jul 2011, 7:23 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

When I try to explain my position on the subject, the bigots behave like I'm making a lawyerly attempt to justify something that they consider to be unjustifiable.

Were there any bigots in this thread? I don't think you're right in your assessment of how to talk to people who aren't willing to listen, but even if you are right about it, you should at least check your targets before firing.

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I just know that sometimes you're going to have to deal with people who see your principles, which I personally agree are virtuous, as a lack of conviction and a sign of moral frailty. I'm sorry that it has to be like that, but that's part of the world we live in.

I don't really think that unreasonable people will be persuaded by violent imagery.

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WilliamWDelaney
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25 Jul 2011, 8:41 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Were there any bigots in this thread?

Nope.

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I don't think you're right in your assessment of how to talk to people who aren't willing to listen, but even if you are right about it, you should at least check your targets before firing.

I wasn't targeting anyone present. However, I do apologize for breaking my pledge to avoid blaming religious people for these kinds of problems. It was misguided and wrong. Bigotry against the queers has always been about macho-ethics, and the bigots only use religion as an excuse when they are faced with legitimate criticism. I am very sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable with your beliefs. I don't really fault your religion for it much in particular.

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I don't really think that unreasonable people will be persuaded by violent imagery.

Okay, so that was a bit self-indulgent. The violent imagery is probably inappropriate, and it would probably make one come across as shrill. However, I do believe in fighting dirty when I'm dealing with vermin. See every informal fallacy there is. You still want to avoid syllogistic errors, but reductio ad ridiculum and such are actually highly effective as rhetorical weapons. Although they are very dishonest, I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

WilliamWDelaney
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25 Jul 2011, 9:25 pm

Philologos wrote:

But what if there were enough of a group seeking a possible cure to stimulate a research program that might turn up some drug or geene spicing that would fix the aberrants?

I suspect you and I would both be modified into unrecognizable new people.

I honestly wouldn't care, actually. I don't have any intellectual attachment to being a gay guy. My sexuality is a biological function, and the manner in which it differs from others' is annoying but manageable and not really especially much of an inconvenience in itself. What I do not find to be manageable is the way certain people tend to behave over it.

But riddle me this: why shouldn't we start with fixing the people who behave like jerks toward people who are harmlessly different? If we started with them, it would become redundant to change people who are harmlessly different.

Philologos
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25 Jul 2011, 9:26 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why would you choose to got to a gun fight - or a knife fight - if you had any alternative?

I was glad to have my folding umbrella - but I for sure did not volunteer for that encounter.

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25 Jul 2011, 9:50 pm

I don't think one must be an intentional bigot to hold beliefs that cause harm. I see otherwise kind religious folks jump through all kinds of rational and linguistic hoops to try and hide from the fact that their religiously defined definition of sin is offensive and harmful to homosexuals who feel that they were born with their sexual preference. It almost makes me cringe to see it. I is really painful to witness. I mean, I can see why religious people are not willing to sacrifice certain beliefs and will protest "how can a fact be harmful", but that's just it. The problem is I don't even see what the point is in having a discussion when two opposing world views are based on different irreducible moral premises. I don't see a way out. It's like running against a brick wall. That is the source of frustration and the reason why terms like "bigot" are used towards Christians in shear exasperation.

Last edited by marshall on 25 Jul 2011, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WilliamWDelaney
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25 Jul 2011, 9:56 pm

Philologos wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why would you choose to got to a gun fight - or a knife fight - if you had any alternative?

You don't always have an alternative. If you were a teacher, you would have to deal with parents trying to pull their kids out of your class because they believe you're going to corrupt them somehow, and you would have to deal with people in the administration who are trying vigorously to dislodge you from your job. Sometimes some dirty tricks and some arm-twisting are absolutely necessary.

marshall
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25 Jul 2011, 9:58 pm

Philologos wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why would you choose to got to a gun fight - or a knife fight - if you had any alternative?

I was glad to have my folding umbrella - but I for sure did not volunteer for that encounter.

In the real world others bring the fight to you. Like it or not, actual research has shown that mental and physical well-being is dependent on having a social circle where one is accepted and embraced. There is a limit to how one can survive by existing as an island amid a sea of hostility and rejection.

Philologos
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25 Jul 2011, 10:10 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

Philologos wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why would you choose to got to a gun fight - or a knife fight - if you had any alternative?

I like "if you were a teacher" Am a teacher. At the U, but less different than you think. Students and colleagues complaining and moving me out of classes - sometimes for "corrupting" them with ideas not in the textbooks, sometimes for being a known Christian, once an accusation of harassment from a student hated my guts from day one. I spent 15 years with people actively trying to get me out. Eventually I let them have it.

I'll tell you - being unquestionably NOT into dirty tricks is the main reason I survived as long as I did. Whose arm could I have twisted?

marshall
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26 Jul 2011, 1:13 am

Philologos wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

Philologos wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

I feel that it is quite silly to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why would you choose to got to a gun fight - or a knife fight - if you had any alternative?

Lame. Being "persecuted" for having unconventional political opinions is not even in the same ball park as being bashed for being born gay.

Philologos
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26 Jul 2011, 8:11 am

And thank YOU for your understanding.

Nobody knows the trouble I seen - they say

The grass is always greener yon side the fence - they say

AND you just don't get it - they say.

Up through high school I WAS discriminated against for being homosexual. You going to blame ME because they were wrong about it? I also got lumped with the poor mainstreamed ret*d - nice kid - but if in the hallway they yelled "draw" at him he would slap leather with his forefinger and if they beat him he would verry seriously fall down "dead".

So I got into the nice we are SO liberal it hurts U - the one my student said she went to just to annoy her dad [Missouri Synod, Kraichgauer, if you read this]. And there I would have been given positive points [except from two jerky people] had I but been homosexual. You would be received with open arms. But I had to think outside the book, and then I was fool enough to go Christian and let the nice PC people know about it.

There is no movement drumming up support for unsocialized nonconsensus people. Where are the candidates looking for votes from my kind?

So you do not like your environment. Fine. I do not like mine. If you could wave a magic wand, would you trade to be a heterosexual nonconsensus Christian academic in a field nobody wants to hear about?

I am more than glad to respect your hard times, as I respect the hard times of a guy who turns Christian in Afghanistan. I don't need to diss you suffering or boost mine.

WilliamWDelaney
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26 Jul 2011, 8:15 am

Philologos wrote:

I'll tell you - being unquestionably NOT into dirty tricks is the main reason I survived as long as I did. Whose arm could I have twisted?

I am not saying that we should always use dirty tricks to get through adversity or that it's the only means of solving a problem. However, sometimes we will be faced with situations in which it is necessary to play by the rules of war. I have tried playing a fair game with a cheater, and it doesn't work. It's like dealing with a country that just landed a half-million troops on your shore with another ten million on the way by going to the UN to ask for sanctions. When the enemy is invading your shores, raping your women and looting your cities, you kill them as expeditiously as possible and make apologies later.

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26 Jul 2011, 1:25 pm

Philologos wrote:

To be sure, being that the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod is more theologically conservative than our twin, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, we have more than our fair share of social and economic conservatives. That doesn't negate the fact that the LCMS is a right of center mainline denomination. I'm personally more liberal than most of my fellow church members, though polls have found I'm hardly the only one.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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