Culturally acceptable child abuse?

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Spot on.

Making a child that needs logic and reason deal with religion is almost as bad as an adult still believing in it from when they had it shoved down their throats.

There's not one argument with them that doesn't end with "Well, I guess YOU just don't have faith", as if "faith" is some part of the body or a feeling you're supposed to have like love or anger for that matter OR by saying "Well, you science people don't have all the answers either, so just maybe we're right too". As if that's how science works.. "we don't know, but accept it anyway". Let alone the matters on which they pretend to able to bring doubt about.

But, my biggest hate towards "them" is how any person can call himself something that defines that exact thing, if there's others also calling themselves that but have different ideas.

Not to mention how "they" can get away with changing their ideas CONSTANTLY even though they have been COMPLETELY right at all time because they are guided by god since the beginning of time, for all time, till the end of time.

Any true christian would send their austic question asking child to a good christian private school for some private time with a priest, or cast them out forever.
I'm pretty sure muslims up to this day are REALLY supposed to murder us ret*ds or no wait "save the honor of the family" us at age 12 once we walk out from praying and dishonour the family in front of the entire mosque.


A random question I want answered before a christian is allowed to reply to my post:
- How come the bible only mentions animals, plants and places in the direct region of the people who wrote it? Did no one else on the planet have any god driven experiences/miracle that need to be told as the basis of HIS religion? He created -everything-, but then only performed miracles in this one region for this one group of people? Not to forget how these other people all have their own gods? Couldn't he have shown some visions of "people elsewhere" to tie it all together instead of cause thousands years of war between these people all claiming their own god(s) is/are real? He is all mighty and all seeing with a plan I thought?



Even IF -everything- religions say is true.. "God" is still completely unworthy of any kind of worship, as it clearly has no effect WHATSOEVER.

Unless you christians of course want to make the case that people dieing of starvation, cancer or murder for that matter just aren't praying hard enough while that promotion at work, or healthy non autistic newborn is something god blessed -you- with as thanks for your good job of being a follower.
Oh NO, lol I forgot.. people that suffer and die get the biggest blessing because they get to be close to god sooner... right? By that idea getting "blessed" while alive must mean god REAAALLLY REALLLLY hates you instead and you must be doing it wrong.

The fact that people try to use threats of violence and torture to force other people into believing in a religion that's supposed to represent love and other virtues is completely hypocritical, but the Bible itself is hypocritical so it doesn't surprise me. This problem shouldn't even exist. How can people be so irrational? I'm glad I've never been forced to go to a church or a school like that. I go to a Pentecostal church on a regular basis, but I like it there because it's more informal and not as boring. I also like the community. The people there are nice and try to focus on the more positive parts of the Bible, despite how macabre, cynical, hypocritical, and bigoted it is. They've never forced me to participate in anything or used threats of any kind. I can see how discussion of the more negative parts of the Bible could be harmful to kids despite the positive attitudes of the people within the church, but it's not going to change so I can only hope that the kids will grow up to see it in the same positive light as their parents, and that the number of them that become psychologically damaged by it will be small.

One of the main reasons for actually leaving Europa was because they wanted to be free from religious prosecution. The whole idea "in search of a better life" is total BS crept into history at schools by patriotic rewrite after patriotic rewrite, (like we have the idea of everyone drinking beer in the middleages instead of smoking pot) because every story, drawing, movie or book from modern history tells it like this .. everyone knew moving to America was dangerous, with a high risk of dieing from disease, outlaws, natives and nature itself, but being free from -the bullshit- of the church (and religion filled government) was all worth it. Sadly they crept right back in because well, who was going to stop them.

I wonder what americans would think if they knew the Chinese are actually responsible for the success of their country, as they were -the- traders that allowed "real" americans to actually settle. No Chinese, no settling all over, no goldrush, no industries, no america.

Religious persecution. Not prosecution. Not poking fun. Just realize it is possible that English is not your native language and the two words sound a lot alike.

Exactly, religion should be very informal to a point it becomes nothing more than a set of stories that explain certain situations of life.
Campfire stories that make children think about telling the truth in instead of framing another kid because "in the story" the kid who lied and hid eventually got bit in the ass even harder. Or perhaps even stories for adults to shed some light on hard events in life. "There will be sunshine after the rain" kind of the stories.

The second someone started taking these stories and treating them as truths or making laws from them, is when it all went wrong.

Ah yes, you're completely right. That doesn't change the point though. They wanted religion to be stories again instead of laws and truths. Sure it ended up overlapping a lot, but the separation was key.

There are many things in life that one has to do because it is necessary. However, the one thing that is absolutely sacrosanct to me is my own freedom of thought. I am very inquisitive by nature and very open minded - but as someone once famously said "The trouble with being open minded is that people try to push things into there." I absolutely will not accept as "truth" anything forcibly pushed on to me. I will ask appropriate questions (and "inappropriate / impertinent" questions), do my own (deep) research and reach my own conclusions. Maybe this behaviour is related to autism or maybe not, I don't know.

A good example of "inappropriate" questioning was asking my Sunday school teacher why he was teaching that God created everything now it is known that life, including man evolved on the planet. The man took my question as an affront to his authority - I can't remember the specifics of his reply now other than remembering the impression the guy was clueless and full of BS. I've heard it all over the years - "God created dinosaurs to eat the vegetation so Earth did not become a dense jungle before he created man." - "The devil buries fossils (at the appropriate depth and strata) to mislead mankind and make him question his faith in God." - "Evolution is forbidden knowledge because it spoils belief in God."

I am incapable of behaving in a hypocritical manner regarding my thoughts. If I think I am being fed lies, half-truths or out and out fiction or BS I will say so and will not give lip service to it or pretend to go along with it so as not to create any waves. I am not anti-religion - I actually researched a number of world religions in my late teens and twenties and even became a Buddhist monk for just over a year and even today I have strong spiritual inclinations towards Zen Buddhism and Hindu Vendanta philosophy; so I am open and keen to explore spirituality / religion, but with my own deep, no-holds-barred penetrating approach. Picking up on your comment about what if aliens landed and required us all to pray and sing to Zenu or some such alien god. I'm afraid I would be incapable of complying. To do so would be unbearable hypocrisy and a denial of the most fundamental part of my nature. I would be one of those people led away for extermination because of my resistance to even pretend to accept Zenu or whoever as god. It would be what I can only describe as mental rape. I will die resisting it.

I am not against religious education; but it must be force-free and children not wanting to participate should be free to leave and not participate. Let them go to the school library instead to study something else. Also I think facts such as evolution should not be skipped over or ignored. It is fine to teach children about biblical creation of the planet or creation of Adam and Eve provided it is in the context of stories and myths, not as facts. Much in the same way I think it is fine for children to be taught (in a historical sense) that people once thought the earth was flat or that the earth was the centre of the universe. It would be unpardonable today to try to teach children that the earth is flat or to present it as a valid alternative opinion to hold today. Similarly with creationism; yet in parts of America this still happens!

One other proviso I'd add regarding religious education is that it really should be education / information and not disguised indoctrination / proselytization. There should be no threats (or subtle manipulative undertones) intimidating children that those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity of pain in hell! I also think that religious education should be informative about all the world's religions and not confined to whatever the endemic religion is in that country. The emphasis being on education and information with no place for proselytization.

No, Tallyman, I'm not a Christian. I'm agnostic.

There are many things parents force their children to do because they believe it is in the child's best interest. This morning I forced my son to brush his teeth. If he wants to let them rot out of his head when he's an adult, fine. For now, he gets no choice. Insisting that a child attend church is no different.
That said, the church/school you attended as a child was clearly abusive and not consistent with my experiences of church.

well seeing how one thing can be proven onjectively without a doubt and the other cannot i dont really see how there is no difference, there might not be enough of a difference to you, but to others there might be, uncluding your children.

In what way is going to Church in a child's best interests?

For all the focus on religion, both parents and the society which we're in teach children a whole load of pernicious BS without the need to invoke religion. At what point does that become 'child abuse', as the term is being used re religions here?

Does that help? My argument is not that attending church is in a child's best interest (my family does not attend) but rather that parents have the right and responsibility to make choices for their children.

It does the opposite of promoting cleanliness. It is the lazy path. Instead of cleaning that thing, cut it out. EASY solution!

About lessening disease. It is a pretty sexist method to reduce disease. "Hey, if you do this, males will have 60% less chance of getting STDs" addendum: Please ignore the other solution called "condoms", which has a 97% rate, does not involve cutting genitals, also prevents pregnancies and protects both the male and the female. God forbid we used a 20-th century solution with 97% effectiveness when we could instead use the stone age solution with 60% effectiveness!

Also, I don't claim to be a sexologist, but I have this strange idea that babies do not actually have sexual relationships. Even if circumcision was a very effective method to prevent STDs then surely it would be no problem to let adults take it voluntarily. Circumcision proponents surely wouldn't have a problem with that, right? If circumcision is so good, makes life so simpler, is almost painless rather than sexual abuse and has no negative effects in your capabilities for orgasm, then surely adults would take that road and we do not need to force babies to do it. Right?

Right?

Of course parents have both a right and responsibility to make choices for their children; but at some point during their development the wishes of the child (in certain matters) should be respected too. If the child no longer wants to take violin lessons, play in the Sunday football team or attend church; or conversely if the child wants to take up any of those things (taking into consideration any financial, logistical or other issues), the parent should help and encourage the child to take responsibility and make choices in their own life.

I suppose what you're trying to get at is that the idea that a parent has complete control over a child's life until the age of 18 could potentially be very dangerous for that child in adult life.

Also that psychological harm could be done to the child by forcing them to attend/not-attend various activities against their will. I don't think parents / adults are sometimes aware of how much impact some things can have on children. An overly dominant parent can raise a child into adulthood that has low self-esteem and lacks the ability to direct and govern their own lives - they never got the chance to experiment, learn, think for themselves and build their self confidence when they were children - their parents always told them what to do, or not to do, or sneered at the opinions and volition of the child.