Why do people still blame communism?

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drh1138
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16 May 2013, 1:01 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I know, I'll get a dog and put false cat ears on it and call it a cat....

20 million people dead don't care what semantic label you call the animal. In pursuing a classless utopia, their rights and dignity as human individuals were trampled upon.

fueledbycoffee
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16 May 2013, 1:19 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I know, I'll get a dog and put false cat ears on it and call it a cat....

20 million people dead don't care what semantic label you call the animal. In pursuing a classless utopia, their rights and dignity as human individuals were trampled upon.

How many people's rights and individual dignity has capitalism trampled on? How many people have died in accidents because it was cheaper to buy faulty parts? How many people did the United Fruit Company's private war in Guatemala kill? How many have died in Iraq, that Halliburton could expand their stock? How many died under Colonial Capitalist powers?

Communism has had several grotesque, disturbing failures. Capitalism has many. Anytime a group of individuals extends it's influence over another group of individuals, whether in the name of profit or the people, they commit a grave injustice.

RushKing
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16 May 2013, 1:22 pm

fueledbycoffee wrote:

The problem with Communism is that when implemented in the real world, they've always worked through the state. This divides the society into a hierarchy of proles and bureaucrats.

There is no such thing as state communism. Communism is a stateless, classless society. The problem is that Marxists think that for communism to ever a occur we need a slow transition (State "socialism") to set it up and then some time far out the state would dismantle itself and then communism.

androbot2084
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16 May 2013, 1:40 pm

Communism does not work if it is forced.

RushKing
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16 May 2013, 1:46 pm

marshall wrote:

The real problem with communism is that it doesn't work well on a large scale in a world dominated by mass production. The price system helps keep supply anchored to demand across large scales.

I hover between anarcho-communism and parecon for this reason. I think we could use the parecon model for more scarce stuff and fossil fuels, while keeping everything else free.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQkMk3gTXk[/youtube]

Last edited by RushKing on 16 May 2013, 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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16 May 2013, 1:53 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I know, I'll get a dog and put false cat ears on it and call it a cat....

20 million people dead don't care what semantic label you call the animal. In pursuing a classless utopia, their rights and dignity as human individuals were trampled upon.

That is assuming those responsible for the 20 million dead where actually pursuing a classless utopia, and considering the toltalitarian government trying to implement so called 'communism' I'd assume perhaps they where more about power and control then developing a classless utopia.

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persian85033
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16 May 2013, 2:19 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Most people don't know what communist ideology is, all they know is its that evil thing the everyone was afraid of during the cold war or some crap. Or some people just don't like the idea of getting rid of the financial hierarchy system, because we all know its the people who work the hardest who get paid the most:roll:

That's true. Most people don't know what communism actually is.

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Fnord
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16 May 2013, 2:24 pm

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Communism looks good on paper, but is impractical in the long term because one of its basic presumptions is that greed and lust for power can evolve out of humans.

Humans are flock animals, hunter gatherers survived by cooperating rather than competing. Greed is conditioned by the context we live under.

No. We are born greedy and selfish - our wants are all about ourselves, and we have to be taught to share and express generosity.

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Communism also requires the abolition of personal property - even the clothes on your own back would not be yours

You posses the clothing on your back, they are yours. You don't need any approval from anyone.

Exactly; and that is one key point where communism diverges from common sense - under communism the State (or local committee) decides not only what you may wear, but what may be available for you to wear. If you're in a frozen gulag and the committee decides that only need a khaki uniform and a raincoat are needed for outdoor wear, then that is all you will have to wear.

Boots? Here, wear these slippers ... and don't lose them in the snow drifts! :roll:

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16 May 2013, 2:46 pm

Fnord wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Communism also requires the abolition of personal property - even the clothes on your own back would not be yours

You posses the clothing on your back, they are yours. You don't need any approval from anyone.

Exactly; and that is one key point where communism diverges from common sense.

Anarchists make a distinction between possession and property. Abolition of property =/= abolition of possession.

Many communists don't reject the concept of personal property, though egoist communists do and just call it possession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_p ... e_property

Last edited by RushKing on 16 May 2013, 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RushKing
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16 May 2013, 2:56 pm

Fnord wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Communism looks good on paper, but is impractical in the long term because one of its basic presumptions is that greed and lust for power can evolve out of humans.

Humans are flock animals, hunter gatherers survived by cooperating rather than competing. Greed is conditioned by the context we live under.

No. We are born greedy and selfish - our wants are all about ourselves, and we have to be taught to share and express generosity.

We are not one way or the other, we are shaped by the society we live in.

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16 May 2013, 3:11 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure fascism by theory isn't suppose to result in the death and enslavement of millions just as communism by theory isn't suppose to. You can't disregard history.

Problem is a communist society has not been reached, so communism couldn't have caused the death of millions. Maybe psedo-communism but not real communism as that would involve a classless society. As for facism its a very nationalistic philosophy so while it might not directly say in the philosophy 'the purpose is to enslave millions and cause millions of deaths' but I don't see how you get around that in facism..since its pretty much based on contribute to the system, be completely loyal to the government or else.

A pure capitalistic society has not been reached either.

Communism has two phases. The first phase is a phase of heavy socialism where the public (actually the government) owns the means of productions. The second phase is to live like the smurfs, but without a formal Papa Smurf.

The first phase killed 110 million people. That's as good of a reason as any to never give communism another chance.

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16 May 2013, 3:15 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Communism is as communism does and so far tens of millions have died under what passes for communism in the real world.

So let me get this straight the real world isn't bound by reality? Communism is Communism and the definition doesn't change if its attempted in the real world, it can certainly fail but it still means the same thing.

The real world IS reality.
We've been over this before.

How can it be if it thinks totalitarianism is communism, perhaps that is more of a delusion on the real worlds part. Being over this before doesn't necessarily make you right.

Karl Marx wrote in The Communist Manifesto that a totalitarian and brutal society might be unavoidable in the first phase of communism. Your argument is a no true scotsman fallacy.

Last edited by Kurgan on 16 May 2013, 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RushKing
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16 May 2013, 3:16 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure fascism by theory isn't suppose to result in the death and enslavement of millions just as communism by theory isn't suppose to. You can't disregard history.

A pure capitalistic society has not been reached either.

Marxism has two phases. The first phase is a phase of heavy socialism where the public (actually the state) owns the means of productions. The second phase is to live like the smurfs, but without a formal Papa Smurf.

Fixed, not all communists are marxist.

Last edited by RushKing on 16 May 2013, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

drh1138
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16 May 2013, 3:17 pm

Fnord wrote:

That's being generous with the assumption that central economic planners correctly predicted consumer demand for fabric and clothing in the first place, and that managers aren't just lazily fulfilling numerical quotas with no attention paid to quality of output, in order to climb a rung in the central bureau. Enjoy waiting in line for crusty bread and tattered clothing.

That's the central problem that a planned economy can't get over, it's allocatively inefficient. Under a free market, interaction between producers and consumers negotiate supply and price all on its own.

Last edited by drh1138 on 16 May 2013, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kurgan
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16 May 2013, 3:18 pm

RushKing wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure fascism by theory isn't suppose to result in the death and enslavement of millions just as communism by theory isn't suppose to. You can't disregard history.

A pure capitalistic society has not been reached either.

Marxism has two phases. The first phase is a phase of heavy socialism where the public (actually the government) owns the means of productions. The second phase is to live like the smurfs, but without a formal Papa Smurf.

Fixed, not all communists are marxist.

Marx referred to it as "the first phase of communism". The term "Marxism" was coined after his death. Communism in the modern sense refers exclusively to Marxism.

RushKing
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16 May 2013, 3:25 pm

Kurgan wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure fascism by theory isn't suppose to result in the death and enslavement of millions just as communism by theory isn't suppose to. You can't disregard history.

Fixed, not all communists are marxist.

Marx referred to it as "the first phase of communism". The term "Marxism" was coined after his death. Communism in the modern sense refers exclusively to Marxism.

Marx referred to communism as the last stage, the stage after state "socialism".

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