Right wing co-opting and rebranding of Mandela

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thomas81
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18 Dec 2013, 1:10 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Mutual respect and tolerance - Jews living as equal citizens in the Palestinian state, Arabs living as equals in the Israeli state (as now).

Not really "as now", but that sounds like a template for a binational One State Solution.

Even Tequila will admit, there are arabs willing to be identified as Israeli arabs or muslims.

The problem is that Jews living in the Palestinian territories have no desire to be identified as Palestinian Jews.

Thats where the lack of mutual respect lies.

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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18 Dec 2013, 2:47 pm

One word : Money. They do whatever gets them the most. If they can profit by hating Mandela or anyone, they will. If they can't, they won't.

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18 Dec 2013, 3:49 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

Those are orthodox Jews or rabbis.

One has to ask if this is the thought processes of their religious elite, what example are secular or moderate Israeli jews following?

From what I understand, moderate and secular Jews hold their fundamentalists in the same contempt that moderate and secular Christians in America do with our own.

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The_Walrus
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18 Dec 2013, 4:08 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

Those are orthodox Jews or rabbis.

One has to ask if this is the thought processes of their religious elite, what example are secular or moderate Israeli jews following?

This is no different to Tequila's insistence that most British Muslims are Wahabites.

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18 Dec 2013, 4:18 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

This is no different to Tequila's insistence that most British Muslims are Wahabites.

Where have I ever said that? I don't believe that most UK Muslims are Wahhabis; I do however believe that intolerance of other minorities (gays; Jews; ex-Muslims; Shia Muslims; the Ahmadiyya; women) is much more commonplace than is pretended by the media. I don't believe that most Muslims are Wahhabi bigots - but there is a major problem with intolerance within the more extreme mosques, and more seriously our pathetic government's cowardice in not having the bastards up by the short and curlies/running them out the country on a rail (where applicable).

They're more likely to be Deobandis and Tablighis (which isn't much different from Salafism - it actually was influenced by Wahhabism) than Wahhabis, particularly up here. Locally, the Muslim scene is dominated by Deobandi-affiliated mosques - and Deobandi ideology is the main basis for the Taliban movement, and various fundamentalist movements in Pakistan particularly.

Last edited by Tequila on 18 Dec 2013, 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Dec 2013, 4:20 pm

Hyperbole for effect. I apologise if you were offended by my mischaracterisation of your opinions.

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18 Dec 2013, 4:27 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Hyperbole for effect. I apologise if you were offended by my mischaracterisation of your opinions.

Deobandism and Tablighi Jamaat is something that I believe needs to be focused more on. The Deobandis run a huge number of mosques here, and have been busy colonising/taking over mosques that were previously run by less extreme denominations. The more moderate (relatively) people are shoved out, the extremists force their way in.

It's their Islamist ideology that is so poisonous, and it is this ideology of hatred and distrust and separatism and supremacism that is contributing to so much hatred and mistrust. What people are taught in the mosque has a huge bearing on how they deal with the world. In much the same way as our media has an effect on what we think.

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18 Dec 2013, 4:32 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Hyperbole for effect. I apologise if you were offended by my mischaracterisation of your opinions.

I'm not offended.

I did love it last week when iERA/Hizb got a good smack in the mouth at the hands of liberal Muslim women though.

(I even started warming a tiny little bit to Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, even though I obviously can't stand her any other time.)

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18 Dec 2013, 5:22 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

Those are orthodox Jews or rabbis.

One has to ask if this is the thought processes of their religious elite, what example are secular or moderate Israeli jews following?

From what I understand, moderate and secular Jews hold their fundamentalists in the same contempt that moderate and secular Christians in America do with our own.

My understanding is that with the exception of those practising religious studies, Israel conscripts all adults. So those that aren't shouting their mouths off in the streets, thumping the torah are looking at muslims through the sights of an M4 carbine.

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Tequila
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18 Dec 2013, 5:36 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness, do those bearded goofs in black coats and hats represent all Israelis? I have to think they don't.

Those are orthodox Jews or rabbis.

One has to ask if this is the thought processes of their religious elite, what example are secular or moderate Israeli jews following?

From what I understand, moderate and secular Jews hold their fundamentalists in the same contempt that moderate and secular Christians in America do with our own.

Israeli Jews and Druze are conscripted (the Druze elders actually demanded that their youngsters have conscription in the 1950s). The large Arab minority (mostly Muslim but with a growing number of Christians, some of whom have fled persecution from PA and Hamas) are exempt. The Bedouin are also exempt, though there are well over 1,000 Bedouin in the IDF, mostly in the Negev.

There are a number of Muslims in the IDF. The story of, for example, Ala Wahib is an interesting one.

Remember that a former senior Israeli diplomat was Bedouin too.

Nice to see you keeping up the demonisation rhetoric.

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19 Dec 2013, 4:34 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Jono wrote:

If anyone wants to compare the Israeli-Palestinian situation to apartheid South Africa, then perhaps when Hamas and the PLO stop referring the "Jews" as the enemy then maybe there will at least be some points of comparison.

I believe that Palestine needs its 'own Mandela' (the closest person to fit the role so far was perhaps Arafat) but to claim that the sum of the issues seperating the differences between Palestine and Apartheid SA are the branding by PLO and Hamas is quite laughable. The power hold of the anti-semites in the PA is strengthened by Israeli aggression.

The only difference? In that case, that's about the only thing you've said regarding the Israeli-Palistinian conflict that I actually might agree with. The very fact that Israeli arabs and muslims have the same rights as jews and all other Israeli citizens under Israel's constitution indicates that there is no apartheid in Israel. In fact, there are arab members of parliament there.

thomas81
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19 Dec 2013, 4:54 pm

Jono wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Jono wrote:

I mean that theres 'different differences' its laughable to say that if it werent for Hamas or the PLO's branding of Israel then everything would somehow be fine. Hamas's influence in gaza is a product of its surrounding conditioning. Arabs are not equal by no stretch of the imagination. The entire israeli political and social complex is specifically engineered to maintain a Jewish majority and Zionist hegemony. If any other country in the world practiced this in the interests of another racial or religious demographic, it would be labelled fascist and rightly so. Nor can it be argued that Israel is fighting a 'war of survival for Judaism'. Jews have survived for millennia in spite of having no state, and are safest and most prosperous when they are farthest from the middle east.

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