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LoveNotHate
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05 Nov 2019, 1:20 pm

A certain politician, late in an election race, got "WOKE".

She realized that people didn't like her, because they're DEPLORABLE SCUMBAGS.

She went "BROKE".

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Antrax
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05 Nov 2019, 1:39 pm

I think the phenomenon is when an organization/franchise abandons its core constituency in order to be "woke."

I know a lot about the movie business as tracking box office numbers has been a long-time hobby of mine. Terminator Dark Fate suffered from poor reception and declining returns of the previous 3 Terminator movies, so I wouldn't attribute its disappointing debut to "feminist propaganda" or anything like that. That said, the target demographics of a Terminator movie tends to be 80's style action movies fans who aren't exactly looking for wokeness in their films. Instead they want to see Arnold shouting one-liners and blowing s**t up!

Movies like Get Out, Black Panther, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Crazy Rich Asians etc. were all touted as "woke" films and were very financial successful. For the most part they were all good films too (although I wasn't a fan of Captain Marvel, and haven't seen Crazy Rich Asians). However, none of these films were an existing film franchise that abandoned its earlier roots in order to be "woke." They were "woke" films from the beginning and appealed to that demographic.

By contrast we look at the historically politically neutral Star Wars. (Like seriously the Empire is bad because they're bad guys). The new Star Wars movies have garnered a lot of critical praise and audience derision for being "woke." While the Force Awakens was a massive box office success, The Last Jedi earned much much less than it, indicating fan backlash. It's simple, fans did not want their escapist space fantasy to get all political.

Going beyond to the other examples. The boy scouts of america probably has a membership that is more traditional and conservative than the country as a whole. Dick's sporting goods probably isn't getting anti-gun protesters to shop at their stores by refusing to sell assault rifles, while they probably are pissing off NRA members that frequented their stores. "Male" magazines probably weren't doing themselves any favors by trying to run away from their image.


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LoveNotHate
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05 Nov 2019, 1:45 pm

Black Lives Matter use to matter (GO WOKE)

Until Trump's "Whitelash" backlash (GO BROKE)

Now not a peep about them.


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The_Walrus
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05 Nov 2019, 2:39 pm

Fnord wrote:

Am I missing something here, or are political correctness and identity politics bad for business?

Yes, you're missing a lot.

For a start, your examples seem to be pretty dodgy. Ascribing the cancellation of one of the Game of Thrones prequels to "identity politics" seems unsubstantiated, as well as bizarre given GoT is utterly full of that stuff and hugely successful. Plus another GoT prequel was also ordered. Sometimes TV shows don't get past pilot. It happens.

Terminator, also, seems like a weird example. The franchise has been dying for a long time now, but Dark Fate made slightly more than Genisys in its opening domestic weekend, and has been praised for the quality of the action - audiences just aren't interested in the Terminator any more.

Let's look at some other examples:

- The Marvel films. Marvel executive Ike Perlmutter blocked the development of "Black Panther" and "Captain Marvel", and advised DC not to make "Wonder Woman", because he thought films led by black people or women would not succeed. When Perlmutter lost control following the takeover of Disney by Marvel, those two films were fast-tracked and both made over $1bn - more than any of the solo Captain America or Thor films. The recent Avengers: Endgame has a cringeworthy "girl power" sequence but still became the bestselling film of all time.
- DC films - DC/Warner Bros ignored Perlmutter's advice and made "Wonder Woman" anyway. It made over $700m, not a huge success but a big profit and more money than "Man of Steel", their most recent Superman film.
- Harry Potter - the franchise itself is very progressive, but its big moment of controversy was the play that cast a black woman as Hermione. The play has been a huge success. The New York showing grossed over $2.5m in a single week, the record for a play.
- Star Trek - the franchise itself is very progressive and that has continued through to the modern day.
- Doctor Who - both throughout its history and then specifically with the casting of the Thirteenth Doctor, which increased viewing figures despite a decline in storytelling quality.
- Avatar - the formerly most successful film of all time is about deforestation and colonialism
- The Alien franchise - famously used gender-blind casting and still launched a very successful film franchise
- Star Wars - the three protagonists of the Star Wars sequels are a woman, a black man, and a Latino man. Still made more money than the original trilogy or prequels (though I suspect less than the originals when you adjust for inflation).
- The Handmaid's Tale - Margaret Attwood's best-selling book, adapted into a hugely popular TV show and now a sequel. Clearly Attwood's biggest financial success.
- Stranger Things - Netflix's most popular TV show has only got more popular as it has introduced more female characters, and now a gay character.
- Society as a whole. Society has outlawed racism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of bigotry, and nearly every business will have HR policies forbidding those things and stating their commitment to diversity and inclusion, and yet the economy has continued to grow.

In short - I find no good evidence for the phrase "get woke, go broke". There are "woke" brands that have failed, yes, but there are also "non-woke" brands that have failed. Brands fail. If anything, it seems that "getting woke" is a good money-maker, but at worst it does no harm.



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05 Nov 2019, 3:06 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
If anything, it seems that "getting woke" is a good money-maker, but at worst it does no harm.


I suggest you read my post, as it would be a waste of forum space to make the same statements over. In summary, "wokeness" is good for business if your customer base is in favor of "wokeness" and bad for business if your customer base is not in favor of "wokeness." It's not a one-size fits all criteria, and "wokeness" can indeed do some harm to some brands.


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05 Nov 2019, 3:32 pm

Sometimes, going “woke” makes people oblivious to common sense—hence, not awake, not aware.



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05 Nov 2019, 4:33 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
... I find no good evidence for the phrase "get woke, go broke". There are "woke" brands that have failed, yes, but there are also "non-woke" brands that have failed. Brands fail. If anything, it seems that "getting woke" is a good money-maker, but at worst it does no harm.
Then it would seem that the "Get Woke, Go Broke" meme may be an attempt to discredit the entire "Woke" movement.

If that's the case, then I have to wonder who would be opposed to being alert, aware, and well-informed of what is going on in the context of social (in)justice?



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05 Nov 2019, 5:04 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
I've noticed this with a lot of things, and it sucks.

For example nobody likes a strong female lead character, because then she becomes a "Mary Sue".

And comicbook fanboy nerds get REALLY offended if you dare to have a white superhero played by a black actor.

As for gay characters, they are simply not allowed to exist. :roll:

A strong, female lead character is not a Mary Sue.

A poorly written female lead character who faces no obstacles and is able to do anything that is needed with no explanation of abilities is a Mary Sue.

Rey from the new Star Wars movies is a Mary Sue.

Ridley from the Alien movies is not a Mary Sue.



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05 Nov 2019, 5:10 pm

Bataar wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I've noticed this with a lot of things, and it sucks.

For example nobody likes a strong female lead character, because then she becomes a "Mary Sue".

And comicbook fanboy nerds get REALLY offended if you dare to have a white superhero played by a black actor.

As for gay characters, they are simply not allowed to exist. :roll:

A strong, female lead character is not a Mary Sue.

A poorly written female lead character who faces no obstacles and is able to do anything that is needed with no explanation of abilities is a Mary Sue.

Rey from the new Star Wars movies is a Mary Sue.

Ridley from the Alien movies is not a Mary Sue.


Then explain something to me. How come a poorly written male character who faces no real obstacles like any action hero played by Arnold Schwarzenegger or Clint Eastwood isnt hated by audiences nearly as much as female characters who are portayed in the same light are?

The whole Mary Sue thing was born out of sexism. Face it.



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05 Nov 2019, 5:12 pm

Speaking of Rey from the new Star Wars movies (not that I give a damn about Star Wars), the actress who portrayed her suffered a lot of rape and death threats from lunatic angry fanboy nerds.



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05 Nov 2019, 5:27 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
The whole Mary Sue thing was born out of sexism. Face it.


I'm not sure Mary Sue is the right term. That's about the author inserting themselves into the narrative as a near perfect character who is the centre of attention, has all the solutions to every problem, loved by all etc. The term originated from a particular fan fiction story decades ago, it wasn't about female characters in particular.


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TW1ZTY
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05 Nov 2019, 5:37 pm

Mikah wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
The whole Mary Sue thing was born out of sexism. Face it.


I'm not sure Mary Sue is the right term. That's about the author inserting themselves into the narrative as a near perfect character who is the centre of attention, has all the solutions to every problem, loved by all etc. The term originated from a particular fan fiction story decades ago, it wasn't about female characters in particular.


In that case I would consider any of the characters played by the likes of somebody like Arnold Schwarzeneggee to be like a Mary Sue, and yet he isnt hated anywhere as much as Rey from the new Star Wars movie.



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05 Nov 2019, 5:53 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
Mikah wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
The whole Mary Sue thing was born out of sexism. Face it.
I'm not sure Mary Sue is the right term. That's about the author inserting themselves into the narrative as a near perfect character who is the centre of attention, has all the solutions to every problem, loved by all etc. The term originated from a particular fan fiction story decades ago, it wasn't about female characters in particular.
In that case I would consider any of the characters played by the likes of somebody like Arnold Schwarzeneggee to be like a Mary Sue, and yet he isn't hated anywhere as much as Rey from the new Star Wars movie.
Whether Rey may or may not fit the "Mary Sue" trope, the fact that her existence (and Rose Tico's as well) was not defined by her relationship to a man is what made her the target of toxic male hate. Had she been more of a "reward" for a male lead, or had she exhibited a more "girlish" personality that required her to be rescued by a man, she might have been more acceptable to the toxic male crowd.

By the way, I think
THIS may be the original "Mary Sue" story from 1974, which defined the "Mary Sue" trope. Try not to barf.

Image



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05 Nov 2019, 6:45 pm

The Social Justice Warriors whole idea is to "cancel" who they disagree with and who triggers them. Making an entity go broke is part of canceling. That have used everything from boycotting, from vandalism, to cyberbulling, hacking and doxing, to harassing them in restaurants, and at their own residence to "achieve" this.


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05 Nov 2019, 10:02 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:

As for gay characters, they are simply not allowed to exist. :roll:


Batman and Robin are gay(OK they're in the closet but even so) :lol:



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06 Nov 2019, 12:34 am

TW1ZTY wrote:
Speaking of "Mary Sues", I sometimes feel like the only man who actually likes strong leading women. :|


You're not. Popularity of tv shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Homeland, Fringe, the Good Wife and many more show that people enjoy strong female leads.


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