God is Evil

Post Reply New Topic

I'm not sure which route we're going - if this is purely a side tangent about human ability or are you implying still that this description is prerequisite for someone to see the world as a vile place? For the later I think its pretty obvious that there are people with far more integrity who make far better life decisions who hate this world or think its fundamentally an evil place (doesn't necessarily even take a monotheistic or specifically religious attitude to see it in lieu of what you described). It has far more to do with what aspects of life a person holds to be salient over others and with that come many justifiable reasons.

As far as what your talking about in terms of people wrecking their lives, I've met enough NT's who do just that, and I've met plenty who don't - haven't met enough aspies to see that yet but I'm sure its there too. If we want to disengage this from the world outlook argument and talk frankly about capacities, it seems like a lot of the people who do the kinds of things that you mention - they could be pushing themselves harder but its also apparent that they're not all there. If someone really lit a fire under their arses they could struggle to self-improve, they'd make some advances forward, though I've known enough of these people to know that they have some of the same elastic boundaries that I have. Genetic boundaries are the kinds where you strive and strive to improve, you push yourself out there with all your might, and the second you relax it recoils and your back to a sub-par position. So, if you think that achieving what you need to is worth a lot more than your emotional comfort - you run at that elastic barrier, keep pushing, keep the effort up, that day...the next day...the week after that....and its not really too long before you realize that its not only pulverizing your mental and neurological health, your building all kinds of anxiety problems from keeping the petal to the floor 24/7. I think that a lot of these people, not all but enough, are in that position because they would rather their mental health than be a momentary have while feeling like they're headed for a nervous breakdown.

The NT dissincentive to try as hard - they haven't been told from day one that they're inferior (some have but externalize the pain quite well), nor have they been railed on for their social skills, nor do they have the fear that not only will no one catch them when they fall but that they won't find another opportunity to bumble into and bumble through. Because our our situation we have a lot more to think about by necessity so, we self improve as much as we can, we push ourselves to the point where we start hitting those nerve-damaging barriers, then we recoil, maybe find its too much relaxation, try to find the middle route, and then most of us have to compensate the in between ground.

That's really where I stand on the genetic boundaries issue. Its a lot of what your saying, that some things you'll never be 'great' at but you choose a different route. I'm passable, I'm doing well enough - might even say I'm something of a compulsive overachiever (likely how I chase away my own inner demons) - but from my own perspective I can see how this problem works out quite clearly. I've known people who, like you said with math, just don't have the wiring and you can't teach them easily because they don't have the means to route the thoughts through. If you mention that your not a natural artist - you'd have to have some sense that other people lets say may have more athletic ability or may have more artistic ability but can't do math, we have a certain amount of space in our heads and it seems like, unless you have an unusually large head, its a zero sum game - everyone's almost by necessity weak at something and if they're not then you haven't looked closely.



I'd debate that its not the sole one either but I'd admit that its pretty significant. The amount of people who can or will help you along the way, having parents that either will help you or the other way want to just kick you out at 18 - that kind of thing I have to call neither genetic nor self-determined so we're probably better off looking at those things from an 'all things equal' standpoint. On the last bit, living rather comfortably as you put it, I think everyone has different standards on that as well so - that can easily get us in a lot of semantic trouble if we're not careful enough to define what that means first (my thoughts - you can have all the sustenance you want and still feel like your life is a prison, emotional needs from self and from life in general I think need to be thrown in for good measure).

As a side note though, btw, might help you to know that I'm both solidly conservative and capitalist - just so we don't both start pinata whacking at socialism or well fare state ideology for no good reason (well, plenty of good reasons in my books but that's probably better left for another conversation ).

Claire, I don't have a set belief on this yet.

However, I would bet my life that this world is intrinsically evil though. Since all matter that we know of has an origin, I will assume that we all originated from something. I don't believe a benevolent God would create life as a system of destruction and chaos. I think if I were a God I wouldn't create life to go through the life cycle like we have on earth. If God is neutral than that just means god is indifferent and that is worse than anything.

What is evil? It's suffering. The world is pretty bad. I won't get into how my life is based upon the decisions I made. I'm just one person. However, I look around and see pain and futility everywhere.

I think humans live like slaves for the most part. We need to rebel against this evil god and daemons in a way that expels us from organized thinking. Scientism is just another form of entrapment. I believe we all contain spirit which most of us recognize as part of our soul. It is our essence. Scientism tries to negate this because it is too steeped in materialism. I'd like for people to be free. I'd like to see an end to suffering.

As for aliens, the archons were described as a highly sophisticated race which resemble our modern interpretation of aliens.
So, I was insinuating that our world was created by an alien race, nothing supernatural. It's just undiscovered science. The science of the psyche causes us to put our language on these natures and since it transcends logic, we are unable to process this information in a uniform manner.

Our discussion is important to the central argument. Whether or not people can succeed in this world by their choices is very important: If they cannot, then the world may indeed be evil. If they can, that makes the world neutral, or even good.

I'm not saying that everyone is great at math, but my point is that people think that it's a lot harder than it actually is. People create limitations for themselves. Have you ever heard of the four-minute mile? As soon as one athlete manages to surpass a point everyone thought was impossible, other athletes suddenly begin doing so as well.

As far as people pushing and pushing and pushing... that's why it's important to choose a path you enjoy. The only reasons to not fall under the Seven Deadly Sins. They're deadly sins for a reason. Basically, they're deadly sins because they lead to just that - death. Either that, or a similar existence in life. They go by many names in many different religions and philosophies, but they are all the same and all lead to the same result.

You cannot always rely on things to come to you nor for those to offer assistance. You must make opportunities and you must make people want to offer assistance, or else go seek it.

Now, in regards to living quite comfortably... I mentioned in another topic that I used to live off chili and tv dinners in a studio apartment. I called it good times. I think people thought that I was being sarcastic, but I wasn't. One of those Seven Deadly Sins is referred to as greed, but where does greed begin? If people would look at what they have, they would know that they do not need to be unhappy with their needs fulfilled. Take envy out of the picture and people don't look at mansions and wish they had such a place to live.

The Seven Deadly Sins are the primary reasons for people being unhappy. They want more than they need, so they are unhappy with what they have. They do not want to work hard to make a living, so they are unhappy with a job that requires an "honest day's labor." They see what others have and wonder why they can't have it, so they are always trying to achieve it. They believe they deserve more, and so they view the world as evil for not providing it. These are often interconnected with each other. Greed, sloth, envy, pride. They lead to death in life. Unhappiness when people have all they need and more.

These also the destroyer of a person's needs. Look at the loans people took out before the housing crisis. Interest-only loans, adjustable rate mortgages? I mean, really! These people who took out these loans thought that they could figure out what kind of loan they should have without seeking assistance (pride), and without research (sloth). They wanted to own a home (greed), like other people (envy).

This is central to your argument, I am sure, and I do not mean any offense, but... I can't read this.

yes but if you look at the jewish faith, their verison of "hell" is if you do bad things, you are moved far away from god in heaven and if do good ,you are closer to god.

No, because you can easily be irate at seeing what happens to other people. Its not in lockstep proportion to your own personal success.



For as much of a self-indulging burn-the-candle-at-both-ends-and-in-the-middle overachiever as I like to be, I do have my own Icarus limit - its the migraine headaches that come all too easily with overexertion or the depletion of mental fuel. Doesn't utterly destroy me but, like with other things, it would keep me from working out well in a situation that's both dealing in high degrees of on-the-fly multitasking and high levels of complexity. True, you can't paint, I knew that I needed a college education as I wouldn't hack it well as a server or line cook. These things come in different areas of a person's being, for us its annoying in some aspects but we can move on, other people - the ceiling is low in areas that keep f'ing with the life and keep the traumas rolling in.




Really? I called that college .



I think we're still coming at this in reference to really fluffy people off of really fluffy angles. Everyone has needs based on what they've been through, how their wired, and fulfilling those needs mostly has to be resolved by 'what can I do for myself?' but it is maybe 25% or 30% the other way - later in life at least and if you can gain your own independence. Its part of why communism didn't work though - people are different, two people won't necessarily be happy with the same things. Its also why I my brain itches about the 'one-size-fits-all' argument that your throwing about people who think the world is evil; its drawing on a pots and pans banging minority and calling them the majority.



Well which are we talking about - people being unhappy or people thinking the world is an evil place? The two aren't the same I and I know of many people who deliberately choose to be happy *because* they believe that the world is an evil place, therefore uplifting themselves and trying to uplift other people's spirits is something that they see as prerequisite to being a matured adult. Have you ever heard the saying that its better to be positive because its harder to do and anyone can complain? My dad used to say that a lot. Its quite a common outlook and takes no overindulgence.



It means that in going either of two routes, if the outcomes are equally unpleasant just in different respects and the one wreaks more havoc on your mental well being - you'll usually take the one that keeps you from breaking down your own nervous system; even if it means what much of society around you would deem material/economic failure or underachievement. NT's do this all the time and when some admit to being afraid of success, often enough they mean the costs. Not everyone has those costs, some are more willing to rip themselves up for the financial aspects over emotional health - its all in your upbringing, your life experiences, your DNA, because that choice has more to with what's most important to you personally and what's driving you in life.

I do not see the world as evil, but mankind and our society...I would agree but only because I have my own perception of what is evil. What would be so bad about a neutral God? I do not see being nuetral as equal to indifference at all. What if God viewed our life form the way we do other forms of life such as plants, insects, and animals. We do not generally view the life, death, suffering and destruction found in these life forms to be forms of evil the way we view the same things among humans.

@MrLoony, I am really digging you, new guy. You are like a young self-affirmation guru or something. You should give motivational speeches, and I mean that with no sarcasm at all. Your youthful optimism is so refreshing; I will not even bother to argue in fear I might bring you down. Rock on, Mr Loony.

This is the real world. Sh*t happens. And it's not because a diety is 'evil' or 'neutral' or something like that...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4[/youtube]

Death is something that can be showing up independantly if someone make good choices or not, and then prevent him from reaching up his potentials.

Take wars for example, peoples lose everything and even their lives depending only on where the bombs drop, not because of their "choices". Same thing with the natural catastrophes. And its even worse with epidemia, which can be a completly a random thing. One thing that we should'n forget is that before Pasteur show up half the peoples die before their eighteen birthday (We must'n forget that we living in previligied places ande times.) Of course, this things can depend on collectives choices, but in this scale the individual is mostly hepless.
There is also things like genetic diseases (completly randon), and cancer (mostly random).

Even without death, there's still many things you can prevent you from reaching success, aka human misery. There povertry. There are childrens who living in the streets, who do not have acess to any form of education. There still many kids who work as slave, sometime for things as horrible as juvenile prostitution!! !
Is generaly not coming from theirs choices, but from the conditions their borns.

God indeed enjoy make us suffer...

I think it goes proceeds from there with 'where do we get our evil nature; ie. society and mankind. Drilling a bit deeper seems to show that the kinds of evil we see are intrinsic to all of nature - we're accutely aware of our own plus the complexities of our behavior (as well as our capacities) bring it to light in more ways. A side point that I tend to bring up with people who'd say that they hate humanity but love their dog or cat - if they were smaller and looked filling their dog or cat wouldn't hestitate to eat them, for me at least being aware of that side of things puts it in perspective that when lower animals seem more docile its really a matter of heirarchy and recognition of power. I wouldn't inherently say that animals don't have their own push and pull with just wanting peace or to be happy in their own way as well (which is what has us showing our better behaviors) but that brings this to the ultimate point - our genes, DNA, our need to consume as we do, have us chained to certain kinds of action - whether its feeding, survival of the fittest or trendiest in breeding (which I think is there intrinsically, consumerism just makes people put it right out on the table), the need for power or status - over another person, judgment of others, it seems to me like where all our negatives come from as, for survival, we're kind of tied to them.

BTW, sorry if I just threw that out there out of thin air - I know we don't talk much, I could be preaching to the choir here, though when I saw that I was dying to comment .

Welcome and indeed, Tellorin. The preceding argument has completely missed the point. This is essentially a Problem of Evil discussion; there have been few (if any) convincing solutions to the problem of evil IMO.

I am unfamiliar with descriptions of archons; could you elaborate?

This is why I also believe that happiness is completely independent of how much hardship a person has been through and, I'd think almost out of necessity by that, would be disconnected from whether or not they consider the world a fundamentally corrupt place. There are many people who've been through hell (classic example - holocaust survivors, some people who've lost children, who have terminal illness or who live in abject poverty) who still managed to go on and chose to be happy just by ironclad resolve and they do so regardless of what the events they've seen seem to mean about the overall ethical basis of this world - afterall they can light one candle rather than cursing the darkness. Just like someone who has it all can be miserable, either because they haven't gone through enough to have learned how to manage their own negativity, they might be in a situation where one specific problem is like sleeping with a sever ache on the softest matress where the ache, for lack of other stimulus, almost seems to become them when they close their eyes - which in that case they need to do whatever they can to offset or distract the pain through what they can do for themselves or others.

This is one of those things Dennis Prager talks about all the time and I have to agree with him that happiness is a skill set, a choice, and a commitment, and anyone who sees a happy person who thinks that they don't have some struggle all their own - doesn't know them. Then again that describes a way of life, aggregate evaluation of one's surroundings and decided way of life are apples and oranges, one is largely external whereas the other is largely internal.

@ twoshots,

Here is a little info on archons and aliens.

http://www.metahistory.org/GnosticCatechism.php

okay, god loves every EXCEPT!
gays
women (they can't be priests in some sects or are blatantly discrimanted against)
Blacks (mormon/jehova's witness)
people who don't believe exactly as everyone else
jews (any number of fundimentalists)
"liberals"
books (christain group looking for legal right to burn a book is just one example)
and the list goes on, if god is not evil, then why does he allow hate to be done in his name?
its for these reasons why america is not a christain nation any more. because evil has be spewed by "servants of god" along with hatred and violence. Even those who say violence was warrented (like the cold blooded murder of Dr. tiller) help show why god is either evil or negligent, for if one allows evil to be done in their name without any recourse, they are just as gulity for being silent. Edward Burke put it this way "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and so far, god has sat idle.

You are confusing religions with God, god or the gods.

ruveyn