Are you a believer?

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Vexcalibur
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16 May 2011, 7:30 am

Philologos wrote:

That is an intriguing piece of theology.

My father is/was - at his current level of Alzheimer's it is hard to say to what degree is IS - at least he is both nicer and happier than he was before it caught hold.- a lifelong atheist. My grandfather - farm boy turned lawyer - was a grumpy guy [I think he shared some features with ruveyn]. He reacted against a Missouri Synod Lutherab Bible thumping mother, then married the daughter of an Episcopal priest who despised her father. So he was brought up in an atmosphere of religion putdowns even before getting into academia.

After I transmogrified into a believer, he sent me a letter. "If I am on my deathbed," he said, "and anybody comes into my room and starts to pray, I will rise up from my deathbed and throw him out of the room."

That letter actually made me think something might be up in there. Why would you be so scared of theism, if you were not afraid you might come to believe? Frankly, I was never scared of upset even close to that.

What part of the letter makes you assume he was afraid of that?

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Philologos
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16 May 2011, 8:41 am

What I said.

Reread.

Fnord
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16 May 2011, 9:07 am

blunnet wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Nobody needs to explain belief or lack thereof unless they use another person's beliefs as criteria for discrimination or other illegal acts.

People use their belief as justification for discrimination and acts (wether ethical, unethical, etc) anyway, and, anyone's belief is always another person's belief.

Quote:

Belief in unprovable things - which is faith - is irrelevant

or irrational

Irrational ... irrelevant ... po-TAY-to ... po-TAH-to ...

Philologos
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16 May 2011, 11:20 am

Faith rests on proof, ignoring potholes and sticking to the route.

Prayer is communication with more integrative than informational content, exercising faith built upon previous informational communications.

Knowing who your wife is is not trying to prove anything.

Talking to her - you tell me if that accomplishes anything for you. Does a lot for me.

Fnord
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16 May 2011, 9:47 pm

Phil, you forgot the little smilies to show your sarcasm.

Philologos
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16 May 2011, 10:07 pm

dionysian wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

what then is the purpose or importance of the resurrection?
if spirit is all that matters why does it matter that Jesus is risen?
Xtianity even with its two centuries of platonic white-wash is at its core,
at its most authentic is the religion of blood and flesh
the pervert from Hippo so was ashamed of.

What you say is true of Judaism and Islam but the God of the Xtians is a Man.

There was no resurrection. :idea:

Right on - he was there at the time and saw it not happen.

Maybe this time?

ValentineWiggin
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16 May 2011, 10:10 pm

Philologos wrote:

Faith rests on proof

Someone. Please. Tell me this is sarcasm which flew over my head. I NEED to know that...

ValentineWiggin
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16 May 2011, 10:15 pm

Philologos wrote:

dionysian wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

There was no resurrection. :idea:

Right on - he was there at the time and saw it not happen.

Maybe this time?

ROFL @ theists requiring first-person observance for doubting fantastical events, but not belief

:lol:

Fnord
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16 May 2011, 10:19 pm

Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory.

Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things. Thus, faith is not based on proof.

Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things.

ValentineWiggin
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16 May 2011, 10:23 pm

The notion of "proof" is antithetical to science itself- the method assumes the possibility of future refinement, always.

leejosepho
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16 May 2011, 10:27 pm

Fnord wrote:

... and then wisdom shows itself in the investigation of mere belief (apart from mere intellectual assent or dissent, and whether actually desired or not) to thereby gain knowledge of truth and to then discern wisely as to where one's measure of faith might best actually be placed.

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Last edited by leejosepho on 16 May 2011, 10:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Philologos
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16 May 2011, 10:28 pm

Fnord wrote:

Phil, you forgot the little smilies to show your sarcasm.

A. I do not use the Gremlins. Not now, not ever. I was lucky enough to live a good few years before the first ones showed up - at least those were static.

Anybody remember Mr Yuck?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gankaku/9553898/

THAT is how I feel about the Gremlins.

B. YOU forgot to insert something to show you were being sarcastic when you talked as if I were being sarcastic. I was absolutely serious.

ValentineWiggin
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16 May 2011, 10:34 pm

leejosepho wrote:

... and then wisdom shows itself in the investigation of mere belief

Wisdom shows itself in investigation PRECEDING belief.

leejosepho
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16 May 2011, 10:44 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

... and then wisdom shows itself in the investigation of mere belief

Wisdom shows itself in investigation PRECEDING belief.

Ah yes, and please forgive me there. Whenever I hear the word "belief", I almost always hear that word/thought from within an ever-investigative "... willing to (know to) believe (or to disbelieve) ..." mind.

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AngelRho
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16 May 2011, 11:12 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

... and then wisdom shows itself in the investigation of mere belief

Wisdom shows itself in investigation PRECEDING belief.

Did you believe THIS^^^ before or after your first investigation?

ValentineWiggin
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17 May 2011, 1:03 am

AngelRho wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

... and then wisdom shows itself in the investigation of mere belief

Wisdom shows itself in investigation PRECEDING belief.

Did you believe THIS^^^ before or after your first investigation?

I had a decade or so of observing which process produces the concepts more aligned with reality before I became interested in questions of philosophy or empiricism at all.

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