ive noticed that a lot of pro-life people are also pro war

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Raptor
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28 May 2011, 9:08 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

katzefrau wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Actually, perhaps they're against capital punishment for murderers because they are in favor of the murder of infants.

don't be obtuse. no one is in favor of murdering infants.

Actually the pro-abortion crowd does favor the murder of infants, heck some of your abortion doctor heros murder infants that are born alive after a botched abortion and your crowd doesn't even bat an eye.

Kraichgauer wrote:

That's because the pro-life movement has so thoroughly been taken over by the Republican right. Originally, liberals like Jesse Jackson were pro-life, while conservatives like George Bush Sr. had been pro-choice - it had been a non-partisan issue. But than, Ronald Reagan had turned opposition to abortion into a plank in Republican political campaign in order to capture the pro-life evangelical vote, which had originally been courted by the pro-choice Jimmy Carter. And so now, the pro-life stance is lumped together with every other heartless, socially conservative policy.

Difference between a Conservative and Liberal, Conservatives set high moral standards and occasionally fail to live up to them; liberals seem to have no moral standards and yell at Conservatives for not being perfect.

You want to dish it out, you better be prepared to get it thrown right back in your face.

Where the hell did you get the notion that liberals have no morals? Liberals believe that the notion that altruism is part of our (yes, Judeo-Christian) western heritage, and so we should act as a society - and as individuals - care for those who don't have, is indeed a moral stance. Conservatives, on the other hand, I concede can be moral people (though many are in fact heartless, judgmental pricks), they believe altruism can only be expressed on an individual level.
Regarding sexual morality - well, that is an individual decision that must be respected, as we live in a democracy, as long as the participants are consenting adults. Shoving one's moral disapproval down the throats of someone for their personal conduct doesn't have a place in a free society. If you don't like a particular behavior, you don't have to do it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Problem with your argument is that a child is a seperate entity and as such we have adults choosing whether or not a child gets to survive because they are under a certain age. The argument over sexual morality doesn't work when it comes to abortion due to the fact we have a life in the equation.

What about the life of the child already born, but who has had the bad luck to be born into a poor family? What do you say about those conservatives who cause the deaths of such children by refusing to extend nutritional and medical aid? Or worse, that they cut funding for such aid. If abortion is murder, I personally would consider this to be murder as well, particularly in a country with boundless wealth as ours.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

"If you can't feed 'em don't breed 'em."

Another good quote that I've seen on a few bumper stickers.

techstepgenr8tion
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28 May 2011, 9:18 pm

cave_canem wrote:

USMCnBNSFdude wrote:

cave_canem wrote:

USMCnBNSFdude wrote:

dionysian wrote:

Here's the secret.... They aren't Pro-Life! They're just Anti-Women.

I call it being anti-murder. But that's just me.

LOL, says the guy who's motto appears to be "peace through superior firepower"

You obviously failed to understand the saying. It means if you have the bigger gun, the bad guys (or the ones with brains) won't f**k with you.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Because we see this happen in reality all the time. More likely the guys with the big guns go in and blow the "bad" guys to bits... sometimes, they go in and blow up ordinary people to bits...
[sarcasm]Yes, I can see how this promotes "peace"[/sarcasm]

Rite... cuz an I for an I makes the world go blind and stuff...

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techstepgenr8tion
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28 May 2011, 9:22 pm

USMCnBNSFdude wrote:

cave_canem wrote:

USMCnBNSFdude wrote:

dionysian wrote:

Here's the secret.... They aren't Pro-Life! They're just Anti-Women.

I call it being anti-murder. But that's just me.

LOL, says the guy who's motto appears to be "peace through superior firepower"

You obviously failed to understand the saying. It means if you have the bigger gun, the bad guys (or the ones with brains) won't f**k with you.

Something you'll get used to seeing here - you're arguing with quite a few people who believe that if there was no USA committing 'atrocities' then there's be very little in the way of bad guys. Think of it this way - they're used to looking at the world in class struggle, rich vs. poor (yes - left of center), so, at the end of the day its really have and have not, thus if one country has the most fire power think of him as the 'rich man' or capitalist and all the other countries - the righteous poor. Its a tenuous connection but I think that's the crux of what you're up against.

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cave_canem
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28 May 2011, 9:28 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Actually, unlike some of the people on here (right of centre?), I do not believe that the universe revolves around the USA.

There are countless examples, current and historical, of those with "bigger guns" using them not to promote peace, but rather to start wars, whether driven by money or genocidal tendencies or other motives. Sometimes within the confines of their own countries.

Your argument is laughable.

techstepgenr8tion
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28 May 2011, 10:17 pm

cave_canem wrote:

You're sidetracking the point though. If you have the biggest guns, the most tanks, the best intelligence agency and spy program, if you want piece - you have it. If someone tries to take that away from you the static is under your thumb.

That's not getting into what certain countries have done at certain times, its just saying that there isn't a teleological argument that would suggest that being the biggest guy on the block - all magical equalizers, ray guns or doomsday devices already accounted for - would not have the ability to do what he chooses. Obviously yes - going evil could turn out badly because I don't think any particular country vs. the whole world would stand a chance. However, within reason this is correct.

The argument goes forward that if you want peace and have the most military and intelligence resources, you'll do much better at attaining that peace or resolving the conflicts you wish to resolve rather than being defeated by them. Obviously as well there's something to be said about how well you use Sun Tzu's teachings - that's a different topic. Having more arms and better intelligence, examined on its own with all other things equal, is a net benefit.

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Kraichgauer
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28 May 2011, 11:04 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

katzefrau wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Actually, perhaps they're against capital punishment for murderers because they are in favor of the murder of infants.

don't be obtuse. no one is in favor of murdering infants.

Kraichgauer wrote:

"If you can't feed 'em don't breed 'em."

Another good quote that I've seen on a few bumper stickers.

So you're supposed to just let kids die? How's that pro-life? And may I remind you, that plenty of conservatives have bought into the BS that contraceptives are murder, too.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Sand
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29 May 2011, 1:19 am

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

katzefrau wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Actually, perhaps they're against capital punishment for murderers because they are in favor of the murder of infants.

don't be obtuse. no one is in favor of murdering infants.

Kraichgauer wrote:

"If you can't feed 'em don't breed 'em."

Another good quote that I've seen on a few bumper stickers.

This is a very interesting bit of mental acrobatics. Apparently pregnant women who want to rid themselves of fertilized eggs are killers for killing potential humans and the concern is for the unwanted potential children but once the children are born the concept of "If you can't feed 'em don't breed 'em." becomes acceptable since it is the punishment of the parents that becomes primal and the actual children can die with no regrets at all. The mental flexibility is quite psychotic.

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29 May 2011, 4:25 am

Sand wrote:

well said.

the argument that a "pro-life" stance is about preserving life falls apart in short order.

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Raptor
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29 May 2011, 10:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

So you're supposed to just let kids die? How's that pro-life? And may I remind you, that plenty of conservatives have bought into the BS that contraceptives are murder, too.

The thing about contraceptives being wrong is a Catholic thing as far as I know. It’s certainly not my belief or that of any other conservatives that I know of

Sand wrote:

Quote:

Sigh……..where to start………….. :roll:

A lot of these abortions are at a stage later than mere fertilized eggs.
The meaning of “If you can’t feed ‘em don’t breed ‘em” means if you know you can’t afford to care of one (or don't want one) then keep your legs together (or at least use a good contraceptive). This is where the actual “choice” should be made and it’s one of the things that separates us from animals.
I don’t know why that should be so hard to figure out.

Exceptions to the above should be only in the case of the mother's health being gravely endagnred by the pregnancy, etc......

cave_canem
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29 May 2011, 10:25 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

cave_canem wrote:

You were sidetracking the point by equating the position that bigger guns do not necessarily result in more peace with the position that capitalism is bad and that everything is a class struggle. That was the argument that I think is laughable.

And regarding your above post - I understand your argument, and I understand the logic behind it. However, I don't agree with it because it is simply saying if you want to acheive peace within your own borders, go ahead and have the "big guns" and hope that no one is willing to touch you on your own turf. If you feel it is warranted, go in and bomb agressors (actual, perceived or potential) on their turf to deter attacks on your turf. To me, it's NIMBYism at its finest. Peace at home - not abroad.

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29 May 2011, 10:28 am

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

So you're supposed to just let kids die? How's that pro-life? And may I remind you, that plenty of conservatives have bought into the BS that contraceptives are murder, too.

The thing about contraceptives being wrong is a Catholic thing as far as I know. It’s certainly not my belief or that of any other conservatives that I know of

Sand wrote:

Quote:

Sigh……..where to start………….. :roll:

there is no evidence of brain activity even remotely resembling ordered activity untill at the earliest week twenty, even then the activity resembles an unconciouss activity.

linkage

also contraceptives fail,

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techstepgenr8tion
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29 May 2011, 11:41 am

cave_canem wrote:

If I'm understanding it right you're linking it with either bad intentions or hypochondria/paranoia which results in aggressive behavior. Am I at least right there?

cave_canem wrote:

And regarding your above post - I understand your argument, and I understand the logic behind it. However, I don't agree with it because it is simply saying if you want to acheive peace within your own borders, go ahead and have the "big guns" and hope that no one is willing to touch you on your own turf. If you feel it is warranted, go in and bomb agressors (actual, perceived or potential) on their turf to deter attacks on your turf. To me, it's NIMBYism at its finest. Peace at home - not abroad.

Here's where I'd draw the distinction - a person could be for 'peace through superior firepower' and they don't necessarily need to be all about carpet bombing countries who've messed with them (ie. what so many perceive of the Bush/Obama doctrine). If the poster you quoted happens to be a 'kill em all' neocon - then I'd forgive you and I did but in and I did ascribe my values to him by mistake, I guess I'm just used to people attacking the whole thing and not stopping there. My own preference, follow Sun Tzu, have that stuff but - have your real 'bombs' be in the pen or in your ability to do little things to alter the course to where all out wars dissipate before they ever hit the present moment.

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ruveyn
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29 May 2011, 12:10 pm

USMCnBNSFdude wrote:

dionysian wrote:

Here's the secret.... They aren't Pro-Life! They're just Anti-Women.

I call it being anti-murder. But that's just me.

Only persons can be murdered. Unborn fetuses are not persons.

ruveyn

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29 May 2011, 12:16 pm

The Catholic meaning of "pro-life" entails not only opposition to abortion but also opposition to the death penalty and unnecessary wars. At least the Catholics are consistent in this usage.

Inuyasha
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29 May 2011, 2:36 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Problem with your argument is that a zygote is not a child.

Problem with your statement is that the child inside the womb is still a child, regardless of what stage of development it is currently in. Pro-abortion people simply try to claim that the child is merely a thing and not another human being because their entire case for abortion falls apart otherwise.

ruveyn
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29 May 2011, 2:38 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Problem with your argument is that a zygote is not a child.

Problem with your statement is that the child inside the womb is still a child,

A child is a young human person. A fetus is not a person.

The conditions for being a child are:

0. Being human
1. Being born
2. Being alive
3. Being young

ruveyn

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ive noticed that a lot of pro-life people are also pro war