Did Christianity hold Europe back?

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It really depends where and when in Europe. Religion becomes oppressive when it is coupled with greed, power and politics. There was plenty of that in Europe, but there were also places relatively free of that and in such places culture and science flourished.

The Dutch Republic, for example, was basically Christian. Not believing in God was unthinkable in the 17th century. Yet, at the same time the Republic was a refuge for Serfardic Jews and René Descartes. The latter noted that there was no place in Europe where people were so free to say what they thought.; The difference was the fact that the Reformed Church wasn't a State church. It had no more political power than what the States General cared to give it (not a lot).

A good object fulfils its final cause.

Aquinas sees that and determines that one of the final causes of humans is reproduction.

That becomes church dogma, and as a result sex that doesn't result in reproduction is demonised.

Last edited by The_Walrus on 09 Feb 2013, 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

For 4. If that's what you meant, then I agree with you.

For 5. If Telekon was not being sarcastic, then I completely resent and disagree with every word in those last few sentences.

One of the fascinating things about Catholicism is that it wasn't until the middle of the 20th century that mass was spoken in local language. Mass printing of the bible in non-Greek was almost as long-time-coming.

So, those who had the book and the language had the power.

Here's an interesting little thang about how long it took for the bible to be printed in something other than Greek and also how the Vatican took to such things:
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-engli ... e-history/


I'd actually find the opposite question much more fascinating; ie. What would Christianity be like today if there had been no collapse of Rome, dark ages, and mass illiteracy?

Most religions explain (mythically) how the universe was created and what happens after death, as well as how to conduct oneself. People want to know what their purpose in life is, whether there is a God and an afterlife. Religion provides answers to these questions. You may think the answers are quaint, but that is the basis of religion's appeal.



I can't tell if you wrote this in earnest or not. If this is sarcasm, then you must think that we do not see so much of this (religion providing these amenities) in the world. I disagree - I see it all the time in my life. For every FBI run cult like the Phelps weirdos and trailer trash preacher screaming about hell you can show me, I can show you a dozen of examples of people happily worshiping in their churches, synagogues and mosques.



It often reinforces the rule by fear, portraying suffering at the hands of the devil for those who deserve it for their heresy? Funny, I didn't get that out of Handel's Messiah, Haydn's Creation, Bach's music, The Last Supper, St Peter's Basillica, Westminster Abbey, the Sistine Chapel, church mosaics of Christ, Bibi-Khanym Mosque, Tanjore paintings, Buddhist statues and countless other religious artworks. Is Bach's music a metaphor for suffering at the hands of the devil for those who deserve it? Were all of the cathedrals, churches, mosques and other religious buildings constructed to depict suffering at the hands of the devil for those who deserve it? All this time I had the naive impression that these masterpieces were created in the spirit of glorifying God, but I guess I was wrong. Please Vigilans, educate me on how religious art often portrays suffering at the hands of the devil for those who deserve it. And remember, you said this motif occurs often in religious art, so I don't want some one-off example like Paradise Lost (which wouldn't really qualify anyway).



It is meaningless to claim that something is better than something else until you specify what standard the comparison is grounded upon. I may not agree with the standard. And I didn't say that Western Europe is removing the moral capital of Christianity. I said they are still animated by it in the secularized form it has taken. Most of the crusades to end poverty (Live 8), racism and injustice are led by individuals with no belief in God. They want to bring about an earthly version of heaven.



I agree. Secular millenarianism stinks.



It would be nice to know why. Could the esteemed gentleman take care to elaborate on his remarks in the future?



My understanding of morality is that it prescribes normative action. Yours is quite different, as you make clear below. I'm not "projecting" any more than you are, except my understanding of morality is closer to philosophical orthodoxy.



If people aren't worth anything and "simply exist," then you're on the same page as Tequila. You're both affirming nihilism and trying to preserve morality and human dignity at the same time.

Empathy can't be a guide to morality because it is just a psychological state. I could see things from the perspective of another person and disagree with him on principle. Seeing things from the perspective of another person doesn't tell me whether their behavior is right or wrong. Moral conduct is possible without the ability to empathize - a person with no empathy could behave "morally" in accord with some utility enhancing principle.



You accuse me of projecting my "ignorance of secular thought onto those [sic]", but then you do the same thing in the next two sentences! You characterize religious belief in crude and false terms, as though it is akin to fire insurance. You have no clue what you are talking about. Has it occurred to you that people follow their religions because it brings them joy, not because they are afraid of eternal punishment? And calling someone a "moral person" is just as meaningless as saying that secular societies are doing better than religiously oriented societies. You like to make value-loaded claims without specifying what the values are and why anyone should care about them.

That would be my bad. I knew discoveries were made by christian monks, but the only one I remembered was Gregor (Who I had previously referred to as Gregor several years ago on this forum and was told his name was actually Joseph... I am now very confused.) So I just through his name out there without double-checking which century he lived in.



They didn't, but that wasn't Christianity's fault per se, as the bible never claims they universe is geocentric. I could see the same mistake happening if Islam had been the dominate religion in Europe, which is what would have happened if Christianity didn't exist as it was the catholic church that pooled money together to buy an army for Charles "the hammer" Martel to defeat general Abdul Rackmond and his moorish invaders.

Wow........craaaaazyyy timing......

I just started reading up on some things, reread Revelations. The evidence looks overwhelming that the first 19 chapters of the book of Revelations were everything from the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 AD.

So, without any doubt if Rome would not have fallen or would have been religiously transmuted into something else, we'd have a very different book of Revelations.

Mass illiteracy was actually just a fact of life. No printing press, why the need to be literate? Besides maybe a written sign or something, the only books were in libraries. It's like asking the entire population of Japan to get drivers licenses or something, or asking modern people to know how to skin a deer as a requirement for life. Because there was no printing press, there was no books to read. And you gotta keep in mind, too, the Bible was the first book printed on the (moveable type anyway) printing press.

Also, in Orthodox Christian tradition, the liturgy was always held in the local language. If you'll notice, Cyrillic, the Russian alphabet, was invented by Saint Cyril. The Latins had this weird idea of only Aramaic, Greek, and Latin being "Holy languages" and St. Cyril called those people Pilate's Disciples, as the sign above Jesus's head on the cross was written in those languages.

I should reread Revelations again sometime, though.

I guess what I was really getting at - the intellectual achievements of the Greeks, borrowed by the Romans, kind of fell apart in what were called the 'dark ages' - ie. when there was no world wide web to hold it all and when people were left to their resources to farm. If Rome had been conquered and Europe would have been left with both an organized civilization and one that was fully Christian - that could have been a very different world. When we keep in mind as well that from the renaissance to the enlightenment it was a drive to map God's creation, which could have come five hundred years to a full thousand sooner.


Interesting. I know that the block around Constantinople was much more vibrant economically at those times and yeah, its somewhat of a wonder why it didn't advance right out of the ballpark albeit it was only about 200 years between the fall of the Roman Empire and the birth of Islam and caliphate so - lots to keep them busy I suppose.


I took the last five weeks to do my first real Genesis to Revelations read of the bible. Reading the whole OT gave me a very different perspective and, in terms of prophecy, you get to see very clearly with Daniel chapter 11 that the 70 weeks were from the sacking of Jerusalem up through Antiochus Epiphanes, the 7th week anointed one being Cyrus of Persia. Revelations reads very much like a Daniel prophecy and being able to look back on it with Old Testament overembellishment (they used similar 'the sky will be black, stars will fall from the sky, the moon will be blood red', even 'the sun will set at noon' language regarding the 587 BC sacking of Jerusalem.

Seeing prophetic language being that colorful and also seeing Jesus state repeatedly just how imminent the end times and abomination that makes desolate is (going as far as to say in Luke 'this generation will not pass away) - it makes the case for 70 AD necessary - ie. the Son of God would not stutter. Similarly the 7 headed beast with 10 horns, or as phrased in Daniel 10 horns with an 11th rather boisterous fellow showing up and knocking off 3 others; you have 11 rulers from Augustus Caesar to Domitian. "5 have passed away, 2 have yet to come, one will be for a short while" - that would be up through Nero. The three that got subdued by the one were the three brief Emperors (2 murders, 1 suicide) before Vespasian who took the Emperor-ship in 69 AD - so it was he who sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD and when they talk about the beast having on one of its 7 heads a wound that they had no idea how the beast survived - it was that period of time of the empire with rapid succession, so fast that many people would have expected Rome's collapse. When you take that stretch from Augustus to Domitian you get exactly 11 emperors, you get Vespatian in Daniel ch 7, and you get Domitian as the Christian equivalent of what Antiochus Epiphanes was to the Jews and in the 70 weeks of Daniel.

It really seems abundantly clear to me right now that for anyone to believe the book of Revelations at all and then to put the whole thing in the future (let alone cram all of that in a 7 year window) is to claim that Jesus stuttered in Luke's account in Matthew 'per Daniel'. A significant portion of the book of Revelation by that standard can't not be the sacking of Jerusalem.

So under the preterist lens as such we aren't headed toward the tribulation and then the 1,000 year reign but rather we're out of the 1,000 year reign, that ended with the renaissance and enlightenment (though quite likely as far back as the Great Schism), and things like trans-humanism are part of what would be classed as the final temptation. We aren't looking forward to 7 years of tribulation in that frame of reference but rather a much more singular event of war being drawn against Jerusalem.

In recent centuries though, it has been 'more Orthodox' to view certain languages as more appropriate for both individual prayer and mass, such as Koine Greek and Church Slavonic. Some ascetics even learn Hebrew to have what they see as complete experience of prayer. A possible explanation would be that there is an effort to dissociate with profane usages of the local language.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20186_6-ridiculous-myths-about-middle-ages-everyone-believes.html

So basicly like Tokyo Japan!