Did Jesus REALLY exist?

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Alyoshka
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07 Feb 2014, 2:01 am

If you're interested on this topic, you should read up on Bart Ehrman.

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DentArthurDent
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07 Feb 2014, 3:10 am

Alyoshka wrote:

If you're interested on this topic, you should read up on Bart Ehrman.

Yep I am reading 'Forged' at the moment, he certainly has the credentials to support his views.

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ArrantPariah
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07 Feb 2014, 8:50 pm

According to Mr. Ehrman, Jesus did exist

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUQMJR2BP1w[/youtube]

Kraichgauer
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07 Feb 2014, 9:05 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

According to Mr. Ehrman, Jesus did exist

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUQMJR2BP1w[/youtube]

Watching this video, something about supporting traditional marriage in the UK popped up, asking for a signature. What the hell was that?

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07 Feb 2014, 9:17 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Watching this video, something about supporting traditional marriage in the UK popped up, asking for a signature. What the hell was that?

Just an advertisement from the individual who owns that particular YouTube channel:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKOn3s08Zc[/youtube]

yournamehere
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07 Feb 2014, 10:19 pm

was there a healer out there. probably. did some guy die because of everybody's sins, while everyone cheered, and just let it happen. of course, it happens all the time. did some guy other than a magician walk on water that was not frozen. I will have to get back to you on that one. I'm guessing, probably not.

ArrantPariah
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07 Feb 2014, 10:41 pm

Mr. Ehrman does raise a good point: in Galatians, Paul mentions going to Jerusalem, and meeting Peter, John, and James, whom he identifies as Jesus' brother. Which would seem to suggest that Jesus had to have been a real person.

I'll have to see whether Mr. Carrier has anything to say about this. I think that Mr. Atwill completely ignores Paul's letters.

I'm starting to think that proposing that Jesus never existed is just a clever way of selling books. Still, I'll have to see how Mr. Carrier explains away Galatians.

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08 Feb 2014, 12:52 am

ArrantPariah wrote:

When I was studying history in college, the common consensus was that Christ was a historic person, regardless if you personally believe him to have been divine or not.

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08 Feb 2014, 11:17 am

I've yet to see why Jesus couldn't have existed, especially that all the relevant historical texts seem to agree that he was a historical figure.

This is NOT to say that Jesus absolutely existed, but it's only reasonable to go with the view that it's more likely he existed than that he did not. I mean, several questions related to Jesus' existence are best answered by assuming a historical person. If we assume a mythicist Jesus, we're going to have a lot more questions to answer.

DentArthurDent
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08 Feb 2014, 7:03 pm

Re the Erhman youtube post, all this shows is that there are idiots on both sides of the equations who will not allow objectivity to get in the way of their beliefs. For pities sake the guy is arguing with a biblical historian, who went from being a born again fanatic, to an non christian who is agnostic about god after discovering how the bible was manufactured to support contemporary beliefs. This conclusion btw was not what he was searching for. He learnt Greek so as to be able to read the original texts in an attempt to understand Christ better, in doing so he came to the realisation that the whole thing was manufactured by man, and had nothing to do with divinity.

ruveyn
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08 Feb 2014, 8:38 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

How do you know the epistles of Paul are genuine. Were you there?

ruveyn

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08 Feb 2014, 8:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

How do you know the epistles of Paul are genuine. Were you there?

ruveyn

How do we know they aren't? How do I know your posts are real? As far as I know, you might not really be ruveyn, but a "pinko stinko commie" writing over-the-top right wing posts to discredit the libertarian movement.

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ArrantPariah
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08 Feb 2014, 9:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

How do you know the epistles of Paul are genuine. Were you there?

ruveyn

If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.

ArrantPariah
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08 Feb 2014, 9:53 pm

The guys in this field seem to spend a lot of time insulting and poo-pooing each other.

Here is a response to a response by Richard Carrier (to someone else)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringo ... hrman.html

Quote:

...Now, on to Richard Carrier’s response. It is called “Ehrman Trashtalks Mythicism.” And it is a disappointing and ineffective response that will only carry weight with people who desperately want there not to have been a historical Jesus, so much so that they cease to care about historical methods and evidence....

...Carrier describes as “Ehrman’s only evidence” Paul’s reference in Galatians to having met “James the brother of the Lord.” He attempts to sow doubt about the meaning, but the phrase is clear. There is no evidence for any Jews in Paul’s time speaking of God having a brother, and so the most natural reference is to Jesus being the Lord here, as indeed Paul refers to him often with this title. Carrier then follows mythicists like Earl Doherty in trying to suggest that “brother(s) of” can mean the same thing as “brother(s) in.” But the two phrases are obviously distinct in meaning, and based on the evidence available, it was not the custom in this time to refer to Christians in general, or a specific subset of Christians, as “brothers of the Lord.” (I should add even using the term “Christians” is anachronistic). Carrier’s attempt to appeal to New Testament sources as evidence to the contrary, when those same sources provide evidence of a historical Jesus, is very strange indeed, and thoroughly unpersuasive.

Carrier also mentions other possibilities – that some part of the phrase could be an interpolation. But if one is willing to posit interpolations where the manuscript evidence does not show evidence of such interpolation, then one can draw any conclusion. The historian, however, seeks to draw the best conclusion possible based on the evidence we have. And so Carrier, at this point if not before, has moved from being a historian to being an apologist for mythicism. He is clearly and unambiguously trying to make a case for a predetermined conviction, not follow the evidence where it leads. The evidence we have available leads in a particular direction, and mythicist use denialist tactics to try to obscure this point....

Okay, the most reasonable conclusion that I can draw from this is that Jesus actually did exist. Mr. Carrier's arguments concerning the passage in Galatians just aren't convincing. He just seems to be over-desperate to believe that Jesus didn't exist, and bends the evidence to support his conclusion. That little bit from Galatians might not be conclusive proof that Jesus existed, but Mr. Carrier should at least concede that this represents at least a tiny bit of evidence that Jesus might have really existed, even if he has a ton of evidence against Jesus existing.

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08 Feb 2014, 10:12 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs[/youtube]

I disagree a fair amount with Ehrman, on lots of subjects, but it is hilarious that even he has to put up with the Christ 'myth' nonsense.

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09 Feb 2014, 7:03 am

I would say yes, but not so much because there's compelling evidence he did but rather because there's not much evidence at all that he was made up.

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