Surface areas: Israel versus the planet Mars

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Vigilans
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20 May 2011, 2:06 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
:lol: Sorry Ruveyn, but no, there are enough professionals involved in the space industry who support terraforming that I am not going to change my mind on this because you don't like Mars



I love Mars. But:

1. It cannot be successfully teraformed
2. It is not the logical first place to establish extra-terrestrial colonies.

One a cost benefit basis, the Moon is the place to go first.
Why?

1. It is a source of Helium 3 which is the most likely material for fusion.
2. The Dark Side is the logical place to build observatories. No earth glare on the dark side and the black vacuum of space is there to be used.
3. The low gravity of the Moon makes it the ideal place to build very large space vessels and launch them out to the rest of the solar system.

Eventually habitats for humans can be established on Mars, but that is not the same as a teraformed environment. Such habitats would be the logical jump-off places to go a mine the asteroid belt. The profits from asteroid mining can be used to pay for the cost of maintaining habitats on Mars.

ruveyn


The moon is a good starting place, and with materials from it further orbital economic infrastructure can be built around the Earth and moon for colonization en masse of Mars. However, a manned mission to Mars and temporary colony ought to be sent while work is going on with the moon. At the very least it would help spur the public to start caring in addition to testing the sustainability of a surface colony. I think a sub-surface colony would be better for Mars, but such would require construction equipment.


The lower gravity on Mars makes using ultralight materials for construction much more feasible. I think in the beginning some temporary structures with maybe some kind of inflatable dome with reflective materials (to shrug of some of the radiation) could be useful. They could then begin making bricks and other materials for a more permanent underground structure. Using as much tele-operation of mining rovers as possible to avoid surface radiation could also be a good idea.


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iamnotaparakeet
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20 May 2011, 2:17 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Using as much tele-operation of mining rovers as possible to avoid surface radiation could also be a good idea.


Also, any labor not done by robots would probably be best done at night since the sun is the primary source of radiation.



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20 May 2011, 2:18 pm

That's a very good point. The similar day length on Mars will certainly make life there much more adaptable than many other planets


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20 May 2011, 2:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
One a cost benefit basis, the Moon is the place to go first.
Why?

1. It is a source of Helium 3 which is the most likely material for fusion.
2. The Dark Side is the logical place to build observatories. No earth glare on the dark side and the black vacuum of space is there to be used.
3. The low gravity of the Moon makes it the ideal place to build very large space vessels and launch them out to the rest of the solar system.

Eventually habitats for humans can be established on Mars, but that is not the same as a teraformed environment. Such habitats would be the logical jump-off places to go a mine the asteroid belt. The profits from asteroid mining can be used to pay for the cost of maintaining habitats on Mars.

ruveyn

There is no dark side of the moon, really. In fact, it's all dark.



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20 May 2011, 2:23 pm

dionysian wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
One a cost benefit basis, the Moon is the place to go first.
Why?

1. It is a source of Helium 3 which is the most likely material for fusion.
2. The Dark Side is the logical place to build observatories. No earth glare on the dark side and the black vacuum of space is there to be used.
3. The low gravity of the Moon makes it the ideal place to build very large space vessels and launch them out to the rest of the solar system.

Eventually habitats for humans can be established on Mars, but that is not the same as a teraformed environment. Such habitats would be the logical jump-off places to go a mine the asteroid belt. The profits from asteroid mining can be used to pay for the cost of maintaining habitats on Mars.

ruveyn

There is no dark side of the moon, really. In fact, it's all dark.

Image


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20 May 2011, 2:32 pm

Vigilans wrote:
That's a very good point. The similar day length on Mars will certainly make life there much more adaptable than many other planets


Quite. Only 39 mins more for length of day, an axial tilt of 25° (which may be beneficial for plants if any surface greenhouses are able to be built with sufficient radiation protection, otherwise I think solar arrays on the surface ought to be used to collect energy to be stored in batteries and used for the general power situation in addition to powering lights for sub-surface greenhouses) and an escape velocity which is faster than people can run make Mars a good long term colony. Ruveyn is right though about the moon being the logical first step, especially in considering the length of travel time should anything go wrong that isn't instantly catastrophic.

However, it would be interesting to see if Heinlein's notion about the moon declaring independence would ever happen. Really though, any space colonies, once no longer dependent upon Earth for basic necessities, would probably want autonomy from the Earth's government... and who could blame them with how the Earth is governed. Kim Stanley Robinson in Red Mars though did convey a good point about people being essentially the same no matter where they are, however having independent governments is better, in my opinion, than having a central government which would be bound to be as corrupt or more than any smaller one.



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20 May 2011, 2:42 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quite. Only 39 mins more for length of day, an axial tilt of 25° (which may be beneficial for plants if any surface greenhouses are able to be built with sufficient radiation protection, otherwise I thing solar arrays on the surface ought to be used to collect energy to be stored in batteries and used for the general power situation in addition to powering lights for sub-surface greenhouses) and an escape velocity which is faster than people can run make Mars a good long term colony. Ruveyn is right though about the moon being the logical first step, especially in considering the length of travel time should anything go wrong that isn't instantly catastrophic.


I think nuclear power is also useful. The planet is already quite radiation bathed so I don't see much worry about the effects. It could be a potential place to try out radical designs of nuclear reactors that people feel are too dangerous to do on Earth or near the Earth
I'm really hoping that Austin's Stone Aerospace succeeds in their goal at beginning lunar mining by 2015. If major development of the moon begins within the next ten years, there could be larger space stations being built using lunar resources in the Lagrange points within a much shorter time. It would also mean a much sooner time frame for exploration of Mars & the asteroid belt.


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20 May 2011, 4:20 pm

Vigilans wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quite. Only 39 mins more for length of day, an axial tilt of 25° (which may be beneficial for plants if any surface greenhouses are able to be built with sufficient radiation protection, otherwise I thing solar arrays on the surface ought to be used to collect energy to be stored in batteries and used for the general power situation in addition to powering lights for sub-surface greenhouses) and an escape velocity which is faster than people can run make Mars a good long term colony. Ruveyn is right though about the moon being the logical first step, especially in considering the length of travel time should anything go wrong that isn't instantly catastrophic.


I think nuclear power is also useful. The planet is already quite radiation bathed so I don't see much worry about the effects. It could be a potential place to try out radical designs of nuclear reactors that people feel are too dangerous to do on Earth or near the Earth
I'm really hoping that Austin's Stone Aerospace succeeds in their goal at beginning lunar mining by 2015. If major development of the moon begins within the next ten years, there could be larger space stations being built using lunar resources in the Lagrange points within a much shorter time. It would also mean a much sooner time frame for exploration of Mars & the asteroid belt.


Nuclear power would allow for less solar panels to be targets of any meteor showers or dust storms, however I would imagine that Earth would raise a fuss about a colony with the potential to develop nuclear weapons and it may be proscribed initially.

The worry about radiation would be for biological life, such as humans and plants. If the plants die off from being gamma rayed, then there is reliance upon less efficient technology for scrubbing CO2 as well as dependence due to necessitated food supplies.

The Stone Aerospace sounds rather awesome. I hope they get their program running. That would be an excellent start to the development of a real space industry rather than the current campground in low earth orbit otherwise known as the ISS.