Greetings Canadians! What is the bottom line?
visagrunt wrote:
We do, ruveyn. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes all of the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment.
F
.
F
.
Then how is the concept of "hate speech" even possible. Speech is speech. Under the U.S. First Amendment the only speech that is not protected is incitement to riot. There is no such thing as hate speech.
ruveyn
visagrunt wrote:
We do, ruveyn. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes all of the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment.
Well, not exactly:
Notwithstanding Clause
Master_Pedant wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
We do, ruveyn. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes all of the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment.
Well, not exactly:
Notwithstanding Clause
The "notwithstanding" clause nullifies freedom of speech if it makes an exception for "hate speech" (which is a bogus concept). If A cannot say something nasty about B without prior restraint then A does not have freedom of speech. Of course libel and slander laws can apply after the fact, but they do not constitute a prior restraint on speech.
ruveyn
ruveyn wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
We do, ruveyn. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes all of the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment.
Well, not exactly:
Notwithstanding Clause
The "notwithstanding" clause nullifies freedom of speech if it makes an exception for "hate speech" (which is a bogus concept). If A cannot say something nasty about B without prior restraint then A does not have freedom of speech. Of course libel and slander laws can apply after the fact, but they do not constitute a prior restraint on speech.
ruveyn
Strictly speaking, the Notwithstanding Clause can be used to suspend any right.
Jojoba wrote:
Saw this article about a possible new law in Canada. Very disturbing. Hope our neighbors to the north do not enact it.
THE CRIMINALIZATION OF THE LINK
http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/4039/26/
Snippet:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
THE CRIMINALIZATION OF THE LINK
http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/4039/26/
Snippet:
Quote:
If you wanted to confirm the notion that elections are a waste of time, you could hardly do it more swiftly than the new Canadian Conservative majority government is with its omnibus crime bill. Clause Five criminalizes the "hyperlink" - that's to say, if you include a link to a site "where hate material is posted", you could go to jail for two years.
I don't recall this figuring as a policy proposal during the election campaign. I would imagine that almost no Tory voter is in favour of the proposal: The vast majority would be either opposed or indifferent, or bewildered as to why it's happening at all. After all, at the last Conservative conference, the vote to scrap Section 13 was unanimous.
That last one - why's it happening? - is easy to answer. It's happening because it's the kind of remorseless incremental annexation of individual liberty to which the permanent bureaucracy has become addicted. And, as I always say, the lesson of the post-Second World War west is that you don't need a presidency-for-life if you've got a bureaucracy-for-life. It's an outrageous law, poorly written. For example, you might link to a harmless bit of fluff at blandpap.com, but two years later somebody might have posted some "hate material" in a far corner of that site that you've never read and have never linked to. Tough. As the typically crappily drawn law currently stands, you're guilty of a crime. Richard Warman, Canada's leading Internet Nazi, has pronounced SteynOnline a "hate site" (and sued Blazing Cat Fur for linking to it). Suppose you're some harmless little jazz site and you link to one of my Song of the Week columns. Too bad. You might have thought you were linking to something about George Shearing or Johnny Mercer, but deep within the site is "hateful material" about Richard Warman's Nazi activities or Warren Kinsella's Sinophobic jokes. So you're looking at two years in the slammer.
Who'll determine what's "hateful material"? Three types of people: Weird self-aggrandizing creeps like Warman; ambitious social engineers like the BCHRT judges who just fined a stand-up comic 15 grand for putting down a heckler homophobically; and just plain stupid bureaucrats, like Shirlene McGovern, who "investigated" Ezra Levant at Alberta taxpayers' expense for years and couldn't be bothered to learn the differences between the real Mohammed cartoons and the fake ones. None of these people is qualified to tell you how to live - or whom to link to. Yet they will. Because to them it's entirely natural to do so, regardless of which party is in power. And, on those rare occasions when a nominally right-of-centre party finds itself with a parliamentary majority, enough of its members are inclined to string along. There's so much of this stuff around it's barely "ideological": it's just the zeitgeist, the air we breathe, isn't it?
I don't recall this figuring as a policy proposal during the election campaign. I would imagine that almost no Tory voter is in favour of the proposal: The vast majority would be either opposed or indifferent, or bewildered as to why it's happening at all. After all, at the last Conservative conference, the vote to scrap Section 13 was unanimous.
That last one - why's it happening? - is easy to answer. It's happening because it's the kind of remorseless incremental annexation of individual liberty to which the permanent bureaucracy has become addicted. And, as I always say, the lesson of the post-Second World War west is that you don't need a presidency-for-life if you've got a bureaucracy-for-life. It's an outrageous law, poorly written. For example, you might link to a harmless bit of fluff at blandpap.com, but two years later somebody might have posted some "hate material" in a far corner of that site that you've never read and have never linked to. Tough. As the typically crappily drawn law currently stands, you're guilty of a crime. Richard Warman, Canada's leading Internet Nazi, has pronounced SteynOnline a "hate site" (and sued Blazing Cat Fur for linking to it). Suppose you're some harmless little jazz site and you link to one of my Song of the Week columns. Too bad. You might have thought you were linking to something about George Shearing or Johnny Mercer, but deep within the site is "hateful material" about Richard Warman's Nazi activities or Warren Kinsella's Sinophobic jokes. So you're looking at two years in the slammer.
Who'll determine what's "hateful material"? Three types of people: Weird self-aggrandizing creeps like Warman; ambitious social engineers like the BCHRT judges who just fined a stand-up comic 15 grand for putting down a heckler homophobically; and just plain stupid bureaucrats, like Shirlene McGovern, who "investigated" Ezra Levant at Alberta taxpayers' expense for years and couldn't be bothered to learn the differences between the real Mohammed cartoons and the fake ones. None of these people is qualified to tell you how to live - or whom to link to. Yet they will. Because to them it's entirely natural to do so, regardless of which party is in power. And, on those rare occasions when a nominally right-of-centre party finds itself with a parliamentary majority, enough of its members are inclined to string along. There's so much of this stuff around it's barely "ideological": it's just the zeitgeist, the air we breathe, isn't it?
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
He's really a slippery one. You're not the only person I've heard say something along these lines, though not always for the same reasons.
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
While this may sound cynical, "Free Speech" is generally defended by people out of power (counter-cultrual hippies in the 1960s made a big deal of it, Reagan called Berkley Free Speech advocates "Filfthy Speech Advocates", when matters on racial/social issues changed the right became proponenets of Free speech and the moderate left opponents [though some on the right don't include pornography as free speech, just read Iamnotaparakeet's statements.])
Master_Pedant wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
While this may sound cynical, "Free Speech" is generally defended by people out of power (counter-cultrual hippies in the 1960s made a big deal of it, Reagan called Berkley Free Speech advocates "Filfthy Speech Advocates", when matters on racial/social issues changed the right became proponenets of Free speech and the moderate left opponents [though some on the right don't include pornography as free speech, just read Iamnotaparakeet's statements.])
That may sound cynical, but realpolitik is rarely not cynical in some way imho
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Master_Pedant wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow wtf, I never would've thought Stephen Harper was for police statism. f**k this BS.
That's the impression I've gotten from him for a few years now...
While this may sound cynical, "Free Speech" is generally defended by people out of power (counter-cultrual hippies in the 1960s made a big deal of it, Reagan called Berkley Free Speech advocates "Filfthy Speech Advocates", when matters on racial/social issues changed the right became proponenets of Free speech and the moderate left opponents [though some on the right don't include pornography as free speech, just read Iamnotaparakeet's statements.])
xenon13 wrote:
The Liberals' brutal 1990s austerity caught up with them.
I sometimes tend to think of politics in cyclical terms. The Liberals screwed up quite a bit. I was hoping that a Conservative government would light a fire under their ass, and simultaneously I had hoped that at most the CCRAP party would make a few minor changes, and not what seems to be happening under the Harper Government's yoke. I think however, that Canada really got the short end of the stick with Harper, and in a way we have the 90s Liberals to thank for making people lose faith in the party that has historically done the most for our country (not to take credit away from other parties, but most of the really noted prime ministers were Liberal). With this majority in the HoC I wonder what our country's future is, or if there is a risk that Canada could balkanize due to the 39% vote leading our country to ruin and American hegemony
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
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