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vibratetogether
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05 Jun 2009, 6:05 am

...is a laughable term.

My response to anyone that is an opponent of gay-marriage is "why do you care!?" My response to whatever they say after that is almost always "but that's stupid!"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw[/youtube]



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05 Jun 2009, 6:36 am

YES!! ! YOU ROCK!! !


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phil777
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05 Jun 2009, 11:07 am

Meh, i have no qualms about them getting married, sure it's a bit odd, but only the most conservative among us would deny them this. What with the importance of religion sinking down in some places, i doubt this should be much of a problem.



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05 Jun 2009, 12:24 pm

In the US most people are against it. People from outside here don't realize how extreme right wing it is - the Average American Liberal here would be considered a Moderate or even slightly Conservative in Europe, a moderate would be considered definitely conservative. The closest a US Conservative would come to in Europe would probably be a Fascist. Someone Liberal by European standards would get called a Communist here and have no chance of getting elected.



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05 Jun 2009, 5:45 pm

Funny, when I read the title of this thread the thought of gays did not even come to mind. I thought 'tradtional' as in 'old fashioned'. I have a very traditional marriage. :D



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05 Jun 2009, 6:25 pm

I wuffs OP!


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Ancalagon
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06 Jun 2009, 9:32 am

vibratetogether wrote:
My response to whatever they say after that is almost always "but that's stupid!"

If you can't be bothered to come up with a logical reason, instead of insulting people, why should they be bothered to listen to you?


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06 Jun 2009, 9:45 am

My response to almost anything anyone has an opinion is "Why do you care?" I ranges from abortion (it's not your potential child) through to masturbation (it's not your genitals) through to cpitalism (It's not your multinational corporation.)

Of course, in my own personal life I do hope to enter into a traditional marriage. Of course... people's personal marrigial (?) preferences are nobody's business but their own.



vibratetogether
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06 Jun 2009, 11:06 am

Ancalagon wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
My response to whatever they say after that is almost always "but that's stupid!"

If you can't be bothered to come up with a logical reason, instead of insulting people, why should they be bothered to listen to you?


Perhaps it would read better as "but that's absurd!". I could come up with a rational argument, but when dealing with people that hold views that are THAT absurd, I don't really see the point. There are some people you simply cannot reason with.

I suppose it'd be easier to defend myself if I was perfect, always logically on point, always offering up the proper qualifications, but I am human, and I have a reactionary streak. In my view, they are insulting themselves by holding such ridiculous beliefs, all I am doing is stating that fact. It's not meant to hurt their feelings, but it generally works out that way.

How do you deal with someone who insists on defending a position that has no defense?



Fayed
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06 Jun 2009, 11:27 am

MattShizzle wrote:
In the US most people are against it.


Personal Opinion or substantiated claim?

If its a claim: Citation please. I keep seeing conflicting reports as to this. Some say Most are for it, others say most are against it. I'm starting to think that there is no clear consensus and people just say which ever supports their side.

And some anecdotal observations: Most people i know are for gay marriage. Not the kind of supporters to go out and protest about it, but supportive enough that they would vote for it given the chance. My mother is the closest to not being for it, see it as a sin and something that one should not do, but at the same time saying that its not her she shouldn't take away their right to be happy. That being said, I'm in my 20's so it may just be the crowd i hang out with.



claire-333
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06 Jun 2009, 11:55 am

Fayed wrote:
Most people i know are for gay marriage.
I do not know many people, but cannot recall knowing anyone who thought it is a big deal. Some might say not for them but do not seem to care what other people do. I wonder if this is people being pc and when they get into the voting booth a clear picture emerges...like what was seen in California.



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06 Jun 2009, 12:05 pm

I believe younger people are more for it - but I've seen polls where a high majority are against it - and since Prop 8 passed in one of the most liberal states in the Country... I personally think it should be allowed. All the objections are either Religious or totally idiotic (like saying it will lead to people being allowed to marry children or animals.) I noticed many of the arguments against it are very similiar to ones used 40+ years ago against interracial marriage. And so what if 2 men or 2 women can't make a child? We allow elderly and infertile people to marry - and also those who marry and don't ever want kids.



Ancalagon
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06 Jun 2009, 12:11 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
How do you deal with someone who insists on defending a position that has no defense?

Poke holes in their theory until it sinks. If it doesn't sink, maybe your estimation of the position wasn't as good as you thought. If it sinks and they realize it, you've won, and they will have to find a new position. If it sinks and they don't realize it, there's not much you can do. You can't physically force someone to think logically.

Sometimes, you'll be in the position where both sides think the other side has no defense, but they're both wrong about that. If both sides try to poke holes, they'll have an argument (possibly heated), but they might get somewhere. If both sides simply sneer and declare victory, they'll both insult each other for being stupid, and not get anywhere.


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vibratetogether
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06 Jun 2009, 12:34 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
If it sinks and they don't realize it, there's not much you can do. You can't physically force someone to think logically.


This is where I often find myself. And it is the case for gay marriage. I would love for someone to come in here and attempt to show, logically, why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry.



Ancalagon
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06 Jun 2009, 2:53 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
This is where I often find myself. And it is the case for gay marriage. I would love for someone to come in here and attempt to show, logically, why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry.

I've been working on some ideas that may turn into a thread on that. I'm not very dogmatic about it, just trying to figure it out, but I'm rather dissatisfied with the quality of the arguments on both sides of this, and especially the apparent unwillingness (again, on both sides) to even understand what the other side is trying to say.


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