"Jesus dying for our sins."

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Jesus dying for people's sins didn't happen either way you look at it.

If you're a Christian: He was crucified, but then came back from the dead a few days later. There was no sacrifice. Peter (who was also crucified, supposedly upside down) didn't rise from the dead, so he actually sacrificed/suffered more than Jesus did. If Jesus didn't really sacrifice anything by coming back to life, one of the most important parts of Christianity is completely pointless.

If you're not a Christian: He was just a man (if you think he even existed), and he was not a saviour. I don't think I have to explain this part any further...

Bec

Your wrong it does not matter if You died 3 days or 2000 years so to speak death is death before God. Jesus Resurrection 3 days later is a Hope for All of Us that Live or have Lived on Earth. Jesus has given Us this hope from His Death and His Resurrection in the end.

I think that this is a difference in the interpretation of "death". Apparently physical death is an unpleasant experience itself, but there is also non-physical pain resulting from the whole "taking upon himself the entire world's sins" thing, and that can be presumed to be quite a burden. Then there is hell, which he had to visit in order to prevent the entire human race from getting stuck in it. I think I remember hearing the Sunday school teachers mentioning that the essence of hell/"spiritual death" is separation from God...described by some as a thorough, insatiable emptiness less tolerable than physical pain, which a few people have claimed they feel on here Earth.
I suppose the thing I am more or less attempting to communicate is that Jesus may be just fine now, but after literally going through hell, He at least earned Himself gratitude from a portion of the populace.

[If this is inarticulate or in some other way poorly expressed, please forgive me and cast your blame toward my 2:30AM bedtime.]

It'd be really nice if God could pop down to earth one day and prove to everyone he exists. He doesn't have to explain all the terrible things that happen to people, or anything like that, just that he exists. Otherwise, all I see religion to be is an ancient device used to control and pacify people, before television was invented.

I geniunely don't mean to offend any religious people, this is just my view.

Go watch the movie The Last Temptation of Christ and then maybe you'll understand.

Exactly. While on the cross, this is what Jesus experiences, hence the words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". He received justice, while mankind received mercy (should we ask for it).

God has done it, does do it, and will continue to do this. Most people simply do not, as the old saying goes, see the forest for the trees.

I'm sure Zeus has better things to do

It's incredibly vague responses like this that keep fortune tellers in business, and why many people still read their horrorscopes.

One of the annoying things about this site is the sheer number of people who have nothing relevant or intelligent to say on a subject, but simply have to post their banalities (or what they seem to think are witty/satirical remarks) on any active thread.

If people want or see a need for a christian/atheist debate, I suggest they start their own thread for that purpose.

Now are you referring to me, Tolian, or someone else?

But more importantly, didn't this thread start off as a christian/atheist debate?

Have you seen Life of Brian:
always look at the bright side of life

The urge for thirst is even stronger then breathing.
I remember reading that Jesus was given a sponge soaked in liquid for drinking (was it vinegar?)

Well, you want me to elaborate a little? In an old post I made here somewhere at WP I talked about the futility and frustration of having no certain objective evidence of anything, and how that pretty much may justify a pragmatic approach to faith. In order to wish for or demand evidence of God we really have to ask ourselves what sort of evidence could possibly suffice anyway. If God, by definition, isn't even subject to evidence in the same manner that scientific phenomena are (once the supernatural can be observed/described/predicted/controlled in this manner, it is no longer supernatural), then what could we possibly hope for?

To most faithful believers, including the most intelligent and insightful, there is no need for such a dilemma, as they feel that God has revealed himself to them in ways that are much more subtle and profound. They may intellectually understand the dilemma, but are not at all bothered by it, because they feel God's presence with them and within them (iIm not saying this is a fact other than their feeling it is so). It all seems to boil down to a matter of perspective for them. It lead me to conlcude that if God exists, not only would many people not recognize him/her/it as such, but we're mostly asking the wrong questions. That certainly makes sense to me (I think we're out of touch with a lot of things), and seems in line with much of what's written in the bible.

That's one song I'd like to have played at my funeral.

Wine mixed with gall, I believe, which would presumably dull the pain, but we are told that when he tasted it, he refused to drink. Such a copious blood loss would certainly leave one thirsty. I think Jesus mentioned something about his tongue sticking to the roof of his mouth.

Last edited by Thagomizer on 23 Jan 2006, 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jesus was one of over 1000 people who were 'cusified'. So why was his death different? What made his death different to the others? If they were alive today would they feel any pitty for jesus? And was his death essentral or not? For me it is not he wasent nothing special he was a man which suffered the law. The laws at the time in roman history was that if u talked about religion u suffered the conserquence. If Jesus death was essentral to the bible why was our sins used as a exuse for the wrong he did and later in roman history christianity became there main religion. So he made sucsess in brain washing the generation with the bible. Was his death different no it wasent he was the same because we are all made to die some day so why dose another death matter because death is the end of good of some one so no one wins Jesus a suitable man died and we get told what is wrong and right when the identifacation of wrong and right is impossabe because wromg and right is openinated and is never straight ford.

i would like to hear ur thorghts on this

This is actually an argument for, not against, Christianity. There were plenty of failed jewish revolutions and newly founded cults that died with the execution of their founders. So why did Christianity endure? The followers continued with the teachings of Jesus for some reason (to a christian of course it isn't some reason), and this message was apparently one powerful enough to withstand the test of time.

At the time not too many people thought much of it. The Roman attitude towards gods was "the more, the merrier". The Romans wouldn't have cared if a jewish carpenter claimed he was the son of a god, unless this claim implied political power. The crucifixion mostly makes sense in the context of how this claim would have been interpreted as blasphemy by the temple of Jerusalem.

Huh? I think you need to revise this sentence considerably. If the question is what I think it is, it's still a non-point and a non sequitor.

What? That's more than 75 words without any form of punctuation, pal. How do you expect to hear my thoughts on that when I can't even understand yours?

yea im really sorry its just i have really bad motor wrighting skills in the AS department

I understood You just fine.

Why though Jesus death more important than anybody else. It is this God said so in the end. Jesus though was a man, He was to God His Son. The first of His Creation that whats makes Jesus death more important. Jesus was a Sinless man for if He was with sin then He could not be that Great sacrifice for all of Mankind in the end. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes used the Roman Law to Kill Jesus as well Jewish Law against Jesus.

Jesus death in the end for all Mankind, with that said it is Up to Us to decide to beleive or not; it is how We want to live Our Lives that is what God wants Us for Us nothing else than that.

We have Our freedom to decide and that in the end is truly up to Us nobody else but Us.