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Sand
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24 Aug 2009, 10:23 pm

An article in today's New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/busin ... ml?_r=1&hp indicates that China is using its newly acquired technological expertise and it's cheap manpower to take over a section of the solar power industry. Obama had proclaimed that green power was a field ripe for US industrial development but the people in power in government in the USA have lagged considerably in providing government funds for support of this relatively young and not terribly profitable industry. The technology and labor situation has permitted China to ravage a good deal of US industry which seems to have concentrated a good deal of its genius and wealth on the basically useless military end of things which makes wonderful death technology but provides relatively little in the direction of general public benefit. China seems to have grasped the conquest concept from a different angle and is rapidly becoming a world power by using ts new wealth and industrial competence and very able population to gain control of those elements of the economy that underlie all productivity while the USA is pissing away its power fighting insurgents in countries with no cultural future at all. I applaud the spread of green power but am not happy about the totalitarian Chinese government.



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24 Aug 2009, 10:47 pm

The U.S. is really I think wasting way more time with both sides of the court taking the political dialog further off its base, one talking about what it can give people and the other wanting to return to old fashion economic values supposedly while not cracking down hard enough on speculators and the idea of a service-based economy. The U.S. is falling apart more from its own trajectory in that sense that's been evolving ever since the Great Depression and WWII.

China though, I have my doubts. They're relatively landlocked. Geography as strange as it sounds is everything. China can gain some economic progress and prosperity on its boarders with the sea, then it causes too much political discord, then they have to withdraw, then they start it back up again. Everything else in China is landlocked and the cheapest mode of transportation - water - is thousands of miles away for many places in China. They may have a billion able workers but the governments ability and will to educate a large enough workforce to compete in the marketplace is lacking and - the more it becomes first world the more it will seem to fall victim to the same problems of America which is exporting its manufacturing to the third world which would end up helping to unravel them at the same time.



Sand
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24 Aug 2009, 11:53 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
The U.S. is really I think wasting way more time with both sides of the court taking the political dialog further off its base, one talking about what it can give people and the other wanting to return to old fashion economic values supposedly while not cracking down hard enough on speculators and the idea of a service-based economy. The U.S. is falling apart more from its own trajectory in that sense that's been evolving ever since the Great Depression and WWII.

China though, I have my doubts. They're relatively landlocked. Geography as strange as it sounds is everything. China can gain some economic progress and prosperity on its boarders with the sea, then it causes too much political discord, then they have to withdraw, then they start it back up again. Everything else in China is landlocked and the cheapest mode of transportation - water - is thousands of miles away for many places in China. They may have a billion able workers but the governments ability and will to educate a large enough workforce to compete in the marketplace is lacking and - the more it becomes first world the more it will seem to fall victim to the same problems of America which is exporting its manufacturing to the third world which would end up helping to unravel them at the same time.


To speak of China as being landlocked with its huge access to the sea and the US as being a seacoast nation with its two coasts but a huge central area doesn't strike me as being over realistic.



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25 Aug 2009, 12:09 am

Sand wrote:
To speak of China as being landlocked with its huge access to the sea and the US as being a seacoast nation with its two coasts but a huge central area doesn't strike me as being over realistic.


Image
Image

Not to scale of course.



Sand
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25 Aug 2009, 12:13 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
To speak of China as being landlocked with its huge access to the sea and the US as being a seacoast nation with its two coasts but a huge central area doesn't strike me as being over realistic.


Image
Image

Not to scale of course.


And, of course, all commercial transport is by river. What century do you inhabit?



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25 Aug 2009, 12:14 am

Another map which is probably more fair to China but may also go well beyond utilizable water routes:

Image



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25 Aug 2009, 12:24 am

Sand wrote:
And, of course, all commercial transport is by river. What century do you inhabit?


Water is still the cheapest, hands down. Will be until fuel for anything else costs next to nothing - that's not including the smaller vehicles needed to drive the roads, train is about the next best thing and even at that the costs are much higher.



Sand
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25 Aug 2009, 12:32 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
And, of course, all commercial transport is by river. What century do you inhabit?


Water is still the cheapest, hands down. Will be until fuel for anything else costs next to nothing - that's not including the smaller vehicles needed to drive the roads, train is about the next best thing and even at that the costs are much higher.


So what? There are other factors in economic dominance.



skafather84
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25 Aug 2009, 12:33 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
They're relatively landlocked.



Iraq (after we liberated Kuwait) is relatively landlocked. China is about as land locked as England.


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Henriksson
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25 Aug 2009, 2:23 am

Quote:
They're relatively landlocked.


Quote:
landlocked
Adjective
(of a country) completely surrounded by land


Afghanistan is landlocked. China ain't.


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ruveyn
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25 Aug 2009, 4:34 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
To speak of China as being landlocked with its huge access to the sea and the US as being a seacoast nation with its two coasts but a huge central area doesn't strike me as being over realistic.


Image
Image

Not to scale of course.


We have a much longer coastline than China.

ruveyn



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25 Aug 2009, 5:51 am

Hmm, four to one (licks his finger and puts it in the air) - yep, I'm wrong. It's been fun.



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25 Aug 2009, 7:55 am

Sand wrote:
.....while the USA is pissing away its power fighting insurgents in countries with no cultural future at all. I applaud the spread of green power but am not happy about the totalitarian Chinese government.


Unfortunately (for us) the insurgents are far to close to our oil supplies. Of course if we got rid of the Filthy Oil Habit we could mostly forget about the insurgents.

Two problems with China:

1. It is run by gangsters.

2. They poison a lot of their products with lead and melmac. Many of the consumables produced in China are tainted. In fact Chinese industry is very reminiscent of what was going on in the U.S. before laws were passed regulating the quality of meat and other food. See what Sinclair Lewis had to write about that.

ruveyn



Sand
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25 Aug 2009, 8:26 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
.....while the USA is pissing away its power fighting insurgents in countries with no cultural future at all. I applaud the spread of green power but am not happy about the totalitarian Chinese government.


Unfortunately (for us) the insurgents are far to close to our oil supplies. Of course if we got rid of the Filthy Oil Habit we could mostly forget about the insurgents.

Two problems with China:

1. It is run by gangsters.

2. They poison a lot of their products with lead and melmac. Many of the consumables produced in China are tainted. In fact Chinese industry is very reminiscent of what was going on in the U.S. before laws were passed regulating the quality of meat and other food. See what Sinclair Lewis had to write about that.

ruveyn


Goodness gracious, ruveyn, what in hell are you thinking in #2? That old baaaaad government is preventing wonderful private enterprise from poisoning the public? Has one more birthday dumped you into senescence?



skafather84
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25 Aug 2009, 9:32 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
.....while the USA is pissing away its power fighting insurgents in countries with no cultural future at all. I applaud the spread of green power but am not happy about the totalitarian Chinese government.


Unfortunately (for us) the insurgents are far to close to our oil supplies. Of course if we got rid of the Filthy Oil Habit we could mostly forget about the insurgents.

Two problems with China:

1. It is run by gangsters.

2. They poison a lot of their products with lead and melmac. Many of the consumables produced in China are tainted. In fact Chinese industry is very reminiscent of what was going on in the U.S. before laws were passed regulating the quality of meat and other food. See what Sinclair Lewis had to write about that.

ruveyn


What's ironic about point 2 is that a lot of our "organic" produce comes from China.


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