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Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 8:30 pm

As always a poll has demonstrated that most Americans want single-payer. Great news for Obama, right? He has a huge base to mobolize so he can pressure the Party of No into conceidng Healthcare or facing further decline.

Well, it would be, if he could actually publicize the basics of his plan. Because a absurd amount of people believe the following of his plan

- It'll give healthcare to Illegal immigrants
- It sets up "Death Panels"

These claims are false.

Snopes

Fact Check

Now, Obama is a great orator. One of his idols is Ronald Reagan, another fine speaker who convinced America that the tiny nation of Nicaragua threatened the US by setting up an "Office of Public Diplomacy". If Reagan can communicate and spread outright lies about a nation, why can't Obama debunk false rumours?

A majority of Americans, afterall, support the Public Option.

He had a grassroots/netroots organizing army he could've used to dispell the myths - before he (metaphorically) spat at Public Healthcare supporters for pressuring anti-public option Democrats.

So this all leads me to ask one question...

Does Obama even want universal healthcare with a public option?

All indicators say no. Either that or he's really, really ineffectual at dispersing his ideas to the public at large (hence an "ineffectual communicator" when it comes to spreading the ideas - rather than his mere oratorical execution).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK5tXNItV0[/youtube]



number5
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08 Sep 2009, 8:53 pm

How is this helping?



skafather84
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08 Sep 2009, 9:05 pm

His job is to acquiesce to the other side. He can't do that if he were to actually act nearly the same as Bush did in office.


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Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 9:05 pm

number5 wrote:
How is this helping?


There's two ways this is beneficial.

The first is that it helps dispel some myths about "Obamacare".

Second, it helps balance out this web forum. If all anyone hears are rightwing criticisms that ...

typical rightwing internet flamer wrote:
OBAMA's TOO LEFTWING!
OBAMA'S TOO LEFTWING!
OBAMA'S FAR LEFT!
OBAMA'S A MARXIST!
OBAMA'S A SOCIALIST!
OBAMA'S A COMMUNIST!


Then people start to believe the lie. It becomes internalized in the collective mind. "Obama's as left as it gets.

When net users see multiple leftwing threads criticizing Obama they get some balance. They finally start to realize...

random political forum browser wrote:
Oh! Others are more leftwing than Obama is. And progressive proposals aren't about Death Panels after all! They're about extending medicare to all! They're about healthcare for all. They're about what a majority of the First World has!

Obama's rightwing enough to oppose it.


It's also useful in mobolizing progressives.

typical progressive forum browser wrote:


My goodness, thanks for the news! I feel such indignation that a man I gave $100 to in online donations has stabbed my causes in the back!

That's it! The next $100 I dole out's going straight to a progressive action group - perhaps PDA. Obama's triangulated and compromised far too much!


In short, this thread helps by shifting the tone ever so slightly. If others follow suite and start likewise topics then this forum will no longer by unbalanced by purely rightwing criticisms of Obama. The Left will have its say... finally!



Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 9:13 pm

skafather84 wrote:
His job is to acquiesce to the other side. He can't do that if he were to actually act nearly the same as Bush did in office.


I'm not demanding Bush-like arrogance and unprofessional behaviour. I'd settle for Obama to act like LBJ or FDR when it comes to how aggressive he is.

But if Obama's reaching across the isle just to receive spit, paperballs, and paper airplanes hurled at him from a Republican Rump than I don't think his strategy is prudent at all. He's compromised and compromised for nothing.

Bipartisanship isn't an end in itself. It's a means to some concession. Obama's never received that concession.



skafather84
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08 Sep 2009, 9:18 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
His job is to acquiesce to the other side. He can't do that if he were to actually act nearly the same as Bush did in office.


I'm not demanding Bush-like arrogance and unprofessional behaviour. I'd settle for Obama to act like LBJ or FDR when it comes to how aggressive he is.

But if Obama's reaching across the isle just to receive spit, paperballs, and paper airplanes hurled at him from a Republican Rump than I don't think his strategy is prudent at all. He's compromised and compromised for nothing.

Bipartisanship isn't an end in itself. It's a means to some concession. Obama's never received that concession.


Obama's M.O. is to back down and compromise with the right.


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Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 9:37 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
His job is to acquiesce to the other side. He can't do that if he were to actually act nearly the same as Bush did in office.


I'm not demanding Bush-like arrogance and unprofessional behaviour. I'd settle for Obama to act like LBJ or FDR when it comes to how aggressive he is.

But if Obama's reaching across the isle just to receive spit, paperballs, and paper airplanes hurled at him from a Republican Rump than I don't think his strategy is prudent at all. He's compromised and compromised for nothing.

Bipartisanship isn't an end in itself. It's a means to some concession. Obama's never received that concession.


Obama's M.O. is to back down and compromise with the right.


I concur.

Let me add that his M.O. also includes spitting at secularist ideals, expanding Faith-Based Initiatives, and inviting divisive religious leaders to his inauguration and letting them speak afront large crowds.

Image

Everyday I wish Dean was leader of the Free World.

"My religion doesn't inform my public policy." - Howard Dean, a true hero



skafather84
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08 Sep 2009, 10:02 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
His job is to acquiesce to the other side. He can't do that if he were to actually act nearly the same as Bush did in office.


I'm not demanding Bush-like arrogance and unprofessional behaviour. I'd settle for Obama to act like LBJ or FDR when it comes to how aggressive he is.

But if Obama's reaching across the isle just to receive spit, paperballs, and paper airplanes hurled at him from a Republican Rump than I don't think his strategy is prudent at all. He's compromised and compromised for nothing.

Bipartisanship isn't an end in itself. It's a means to some concession. Obama's never received that concession.


Obama's M.O. is to back down and compromise with the right.


I concur.

Let me add that his M.O. also includes spitting at secularist ideals, expanding Faith-Based Initiatives, and inviting divisive religious leaders to his inauguration and letting them speak afront large crowds.

Image

Everyday I wish Dean was leader of the Free World.

"My religion doesn't inform my public policy." - Howard Dean, a true hero


I supported Dean...unfortunately at that time I was registered 3rd party so I couldn't place my vote for him.

To steal someone else's phrase about that problem: "Never again."


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number5
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08 Sep 2009, 10:11 pm

[quote="Master_Pedant"][/quote]When net users see multiple leftwing threads criticizing Obama they get some balance. They finally start to realize...


I believe this is the fatal flaw in your logic. You assume way too much of the general public. Most people aren't even looking for balance. An anti-Obama progressive movement would accomplish nothing other than adding more fuel to the right-wing opposer fire. It doesn't appear that you are looking for balance either when you use NBC polls on the Huffington Post as factual representation of American citizens. I trust those nonsense polls about as much as I trust the polls on Fox, which happen to say the exact opposite. Incidentally, I think Fox may have higher ratings these days. :(



claire-333
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08 Sep 2009, 10:13 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Now, Obama is a great orator.
You think so? When I saw the title, I thought the thread was going to be about his public speaking skills. I find his speech to be chopy with pauses in all the wrong places. His sentences often lack natural flow and I find it dificult to follow along.



Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 10:34 pm

number5 wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
When net users see multiple leftwing threads criticizing Obama they get some balance. They finally start to realize...


I believe this is the fatal flaw in your logic. You assume way too much of the general public. Most people aren't even looking for balance. An anti-Obama progressive movement would accomplish nothing other than adding more fuel to the right-wing opposer fire. It doesn't appear that you are looking for balance either when you use NBC polls on the Huffington Post as factual representation of American citizens. I trust those nonsense polls about as much as I trust the polls on Fox, which happen to say the exact opposite. Incidentally, I think Fox may have higher ratings these days. :(


Lovely attempt to posion the well.

Quote:
Most people in the United States think it is the government’s responsibility to make sure every citizen is covered by a health care plan, according to a poll by Gallup released by USA Today. 64 per cent of respondents agree with this idea, down five points since November 2006.


http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/29 ... ealth_care

A less formidable majority, I admit. Still not that bad of a drop seeing as to how state healthcare's been associated with death panels and illegal alien coverage.

Quote:
(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - A significant number of people in the United States would consider travelling outside the country to seek certain medical treatments, according to a poll by Gallup. 29 per cent of respondents would go abroad in search for alternative treatments for a major medical problem, while 24 per cent would travel to get cancer diagnosis or treatment.


http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/33 ... ent_abroad

Quote:
WASHINGTON — A majority of Americans are in favor of having a public, or government-run, option in the US health care system as proposed by President Barack Obama, a poll showed Tuesday.

Fifty-two percent of 2,276 US adults surveyed online by Harris Interactive between July 9 and 13 said they were in favor of a government-run health plan, while just 30 percent were against.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... UWCJtIFe6g

Quote:
PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-four percent of Americans believe a new healthcare reform law would improve medical care in the U.S., contrasted with 26% who say it would improve their personal medical care. Forty-seven percent of Americans believe reform will expand access to healthcare in the U.S., while 21% say it will expand their own access to healthcare.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/121943/Benef ... icans.aspx

True, Obama's lost a lot of backing due to his absymal failure to rebuke rumours. It's also true the LBJ - a much better legislator - faced harsh opposition. Yet he got medicare through and its cherished today by most Americans.

Tommy Douglas faced enormous battles in Saskatchewan. Yet most Canadians pride themselves in their single-payer healthcare.



Jacoby
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08 Sep 2009, 10:34 pm

Yea... I don't know about that poll. There's the special interest groups and the misinformation but when it boils down to it most Americans don't want an even bigger government to run the health care system and with it 1/6th of our economy nor do they want to pay for it with their tax dollars.

I've noticed that a lot non-Americans(at least on the internet) have such strong views on American domestic politics. Not to offend you(and I really mean that I'm just curious) but do you want to be American or live here? How does healthcare in America effect Canada?



Master_Pedant
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08 Sep 2009, 10:38 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Yea... I don't know about that poll. There's the special interest groups and the misinformation but when it boils down to it most Americans don't want an even bigger government to run the health care system and with it 1/6th of our economy nor do they want to pay for it with their tax dollars.

I've noticed that a lot non-Americans(at least on the internet) have such strong views on American domestic politics. Not to offend you(and I really mean that I'm just curious) but do you want to be American or live here? How does healthcare in America effect Canada?


Many reasons for strong views.

1) American has its hands in everone's pockets. The US has toppled governments in the third world over policy disagreements. Other First Worlders, then, should at least be permitted to express opinions on US policy matters.
2) Perhaps less Americans would desire to come to Canada for healthcare if there was healthcare in America.
3) A majority of polls illustrate that Americans desire healthcare. Medicare has been one of the US's most popular social programs. Americans don't hate big gov't so much as they hate paying for it.
4) Very few Canadian topics have been started on this forum.
5) There's been a pitiful amount of progressive assaults on Obama. I want to change that.
6) You said yourself that you opposed "nationalism".



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08 Sep 2009, 11:20 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Yea... I don't know about that poll. There's the special interest groups and the misinformation but when it boils down to it most Americans don't want an even bigger government to run the health care system and with it 1/6th of our economy nor do they want to pay for it with their tax dollars.

I've noticed that a lot non-Americans(at least on the internet) have such strong views on American domestic politics. Not to offend you(and I really mean that I'm just curious) but do you want to be American or live here? How does healthcare in America effect Canada?


Many reasons for strong views.

1) American has its hands in everone's pockets. The US has toppled governments in the third world over policy disagreements. Other First Worlders, then, should at least be permitted to express opinions on US policy matters.
2) Perhaps less Americans would desire to come to Canada for healthcare if there was healthcare in America.
3) A majority of polls illustrate that Americans desire healthcare. Medicare has been one of the US's most popular social programs. Americans don't hate big gov't so much as they hate paying for it.
4) Very few Canadian topics have been started on this forum.
5) There's been a pitiful amount of progressive assaults on Obama. I want to change that.
6) You said yourself that you opposed "nationalism".


How many Americans really go to Canada for health care and not just the cheap generic drugs?

I don't know how the stats are for Canada but I know that when compared to the NHS in the UK the US survivals rates with cancer are significantly higher.

Desire does not necessarily mean support. Do Americans want free health care for everyone? Well yea but they don't want to pay for it or have it effect their own health care which is impossible. Also, In my experience most Americans left and right are very distrustful of the government.

I said something along the lines of that all racial nationalists(such as black nationalists, white nationalists, whatever) are really racists in another thread. I still think America is an exceptional country. :wink:



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08 Sep 2009, 11:23 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
2) Perhaps less Americans would desire to come to Canada for healthcare if there was healthcare in America.
I have always understood the give and take between Canadian and US healthcare to be...we order our prescriptions online from Canada to get a better price, and Canadians come here so they do not have to wait for months to get that new knee.

Master_Pedant wrote:
3) A majority of polls illustrate that Americans desire healthcare. Medicare has been one of the US's most popular social programs. Americans don't hate big gov't so much as they hate paying for it.
The existing government provided healthcare programs of Medicade and Medicare share in common the same problems with wait times as Canada.

Do not get me wrong, I am not completely against the idea of universal health care but one has to give some concession to the US citizen who might not trust their government to properly operate such a program. I do not think the real concern is Obama in particular.