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greenblue
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31 Dec 2009, 11:42 pm

Orwell wrote:
3) If you accept the pro-life assumption that a fetus is a human (or at least some variant of that assumption) it is not possible to follow Dent's snide suggestion that "If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one." If you accept that a fetus is a human, then it is beyond a moral outrage to allow abortion as it is literally murder and infanticide on a massive scale.

well, the issue is that abortion is currently permited by society (first trimester) , and given that, in practice, some who believe that abortion is wrong, don't seem to have other than just not having one, there is this view from the pro-choice side about the freedom of a person of making a councsious decision, each according to their own values, and well, the issue is that not everyone have the same values. Whatever is established by society, there will always be a group of people who would disagree with it, and some will have no other than to respect what it has been established (even though some would not), so the idea doesn't seem that impossible.

Quote:
5) Hardly anyone is pro-abortion.

In some circumstances, I really tend to lead pro-abortion.

Quote:
In general, I just think people on both sides of the debate are being stupid.

well, the only thing I could see they could be "stupid" is probably dishonesty and the way of arguing, making moral accusations against the other or so. But that practically seems to be the same with everything anyway, besides abortion.


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Last edited by greenblue on 31 Dec 2009, 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DentArthurDent
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31 Dec 2009, 11:45 pm

Magnus wrote:
But, logically...isn't it better to believe things that support us, whether or not they are true...sometimes at least?


Now there is a massive can of worms 8O :lol: My initial reaction is No, but then I think about all the small deceits that can keep us afloat so maybe it is not so black and white. That said I am not a fan of the pragmatic idea of mutable truths, or post modernism.


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Magnus
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31 Dec 2009, 11:52 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Magnus wrote:
But, logically...isn't it better to believe things that support us, whether or not they are true...sometimes at least?


Now there is a massive can of worms 8O :lol: My initial reaction is No, but then I think about all the small deceits that can keep us afloat so maybe it is not so black and white. That said I am not a fan of the pragmatic idea of mutable truths, or post modernism.


Hell no. I want the truth. I'll ride this out. The imagination is so cool. I need to pass on the information to him at least. If Milo turns out schizo, he will be the leader of schizos.


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01 Jan 2010, 12:23 am

Magnus wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Magnus wrote:
But, logically...isn't it better to believe things that support us, whether or not they are true...sometimes at least?


Now there is a massive can of worms 8O :lol: My initial reaction is No, but then I think about all the small deceits that can keep us afloat so maybe it is not so black and white. That said I am not a fan of the pragmatic idea of mutable truths, or post modernism.


Hell no. I want the truth. I'll ride this out. The imagination is so cool. I need to pass on the information to him at least. If Milo turns out schizo, he will be the leader of schizos.


Mmmmm now you have me totally confused :?


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01 Jan 2010, 12:32 am

Why?


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01 Jan 2010, 8:45 am

TheOddGoat wrote:

Lets say this time god won't let the person off the hook.

You are pregnant with the antichrist and are pro-life.

Your health is not at threat.

What do you do?


Puhleeeze! How does a woman know she is carrying the anti-christ? Do the horns, hooves and forked tail show up in the ultra-sound pictures. This is very silly.

ruveyn



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01 Jan 2010, 9:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
TheOddGoat wrote:

Lets say this time god won't let the person off the hook.

You are pregnant with the antichrist and are pro-life.

Your health is not at threat.

What do you do?


Puhleeeze! How does a woman know she is carrying the anti-christ? Do the horns, hooves and forked tail show up in the ultra-sound pictures. This is very silly.

ruveyn


Bahhhh you need to see the previous version, this is an extension of that.

I'll do it in full then.

You are pregnant with the antichrist and are pro-life. (you are female of course)

You are a christian.

God appears in an earthly form and tells you that you are pregnant with the antichrist and that you must destroy it before it is born. There are several witnesses and it is filmed and he does magical impossible things to prove his magical-ness.

Your health is not at threat, the antichrist is perfectly healthy.

What do you do?



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01 Jan 2010, 10:41 am

greenblue wrote:
Orwell wrote:
3) If you accept the pro-life assumption that a fetus is a human (or at least some variant of that assumption) it is not possible to follow Dent's snide suggestion that "If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one." If you accept that a fetus is a human, then it is beyond a moral outrage to allow abortion as it is literally murder and infanticide on a massive scale.

well, the issue is that abortion is currently permited by society (first trimester) , and given that, in practice, some who believe that abortion is wrong, don't seem to have other than just not having one, there is this view from the pro-choice side about the freedom of a person of making a councsious decision, each according to their own values, and well, the issue is that not everyone have the same values. Whatever is established by society, there will always be a group of people who would disagree with it, and some will have no other than to respect what it has been established (even though some would not), so the idea doesn't seem that impossible.

You reach the philosophical problem of at what point your personal moral convictions may trump governmental decisions. In some situations, it is believed that resisting government is not only justified, but morally required because the government can be seen to be doing (or allowing) something terrible. It can't be acceptable to a pro-lifer to hear the argument that each person must make a decision according to their own values; from their perspective, this is as absurd as someone telling you that murder should be legal because some people wish to do it and everyone must make a decision based on their own values whether or not they should go around killing people. "If you're opposed to murder, don't kill people" is hardly a satisfactory answer to the problem.


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01 Jan 2010, 12:36 pm

"if you're opposed to murder, don't kill people."

Should be:

"If you are opposed to being murdered, don't kill people."



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01 Jan 2010, 4:02 pm

Orwell wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Orwell wrote:
3) If you accept the pro-life assumption that a fetus is a human (or at least some variant of that assumption) it is not possible to follow Dent's snide suggestion that "If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one." If you accept that a fetus is a human, then it is beyond a moral outrage to allow abortion as it is literally murder and infanticide on a massive scale.

well, the issue is that abortion is currently permited by society (first trimester) , and given that, in practice, some who believe that abortion is wrong, don't seem to have other than just not having one, there is this view from the pro-choice side about the freedom of a person of making a councsious decision, each according to their own values, and well, the issue is that not everyone have the same values. Whatever is established by society, there will always be a group of people who would disagree with it, and some will have no other than to respect what it has been established (even though some would not), so the idea doesn't seem that impossible.

You reach the philosophical problem of at what point your personal moral convictions may trump governmental decisions. In some situations, it is believed that resisting government is not only justified, but morally required because the government can be seen to be doing (or allowing) something terrible. It can't be acceptable to a pro-lifer to hear the argument that each person must make a decision according to their own values; from their perspective, this is as absurd as someone telling you that murder should be legal because some people wish to do it and everyone must make a decision based on their own values whether or not they should go around killing people. "If you're opposed to murder, don't kill people" is hardly a satisfactory answer to the problem.


I agree with how you've summed up the pro-life movement. They don't accept that a decision to terminate a pregnancy could come from a well formed conscious that sincerely believes the fetus is not a life. Therefore, they fight. I can't buy into the way the movement thinks, and I find it a shame that they come at it the way they do, because it leaves no room to logically and humanely reduce the incidence of abortion through means other than the law.


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01 Jan 2010, 4:22 pm

greenblue wrote:
Quote:
In general, I just think people on both sides of the debate are being stupid.

well, the only thing I could see they could be "stupid" is probably dishonesty and the way of arguing, making moral accusations against the other or so. But that practically seems to be the same with everything anyway, besides abortion.

What I normally mean when I say that is that, generally speaking, neither side seems capable of comprehending the other side's point. Both sides start from different fundamental assumptions, and only argue about the end conclusions, not their initial assumptions.

DW_a_mom wrote:
I agree with how you've summed up the pro-life movement. They don't accept that a decision to terminate a pregnancy could come from a well formed conscious that sincerely believes the fetus is not a life. Therefore, they fight. I can't buy into the way the movement thinks, and I find it a shame that they come at it the way they do, because it leaves no room to logically and humanely reduce the incidence of abortion through means other than the law.

The issue is that for someone who accepts the pro-life assumptions (that a fetus is a life) there is no way to accept another view. If you believe the fetus is alive, it is simply and absolutely wrong to end that life under virtually any circumstances, and that's not a claim that can be negotiable. It's nearly impossible to argue against it.


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01 Jan 2010, 4:32 pm

Orwell wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:
I agree with how you've summed up the pro-life movement. They don't accept that a decision to terminate a pregnancy could come from a well formed conscious that sincerely believes the fetus is not a life. Therefore, they fight. I can't buy into the way the movement thinks, and I find it a shame that they come at it the way they do, because it leaves no room to logically and humanely reduce the incidence of abortion through means other than the law.

The issue is that for someone who accepts the pro-life assumptions (that a fetus is a life) there is no way to accept another view. If you believe the fetus is alive, it is simply and absolutely wrong to end that life under virtually any circumstances, and that's not a claim that can be negotiable. It's nearly impossible to argue against it.


To split the hairs, I and many others believe it is a life, but are also capable of understanding and accepting that others can sincerely and with clear conscious believe it is not a life, and that our belief doesn't trump theirs. We also know that individuals of strong conscious may belief it is a life but also see circumstances where it would be better not to bring that life into the world. In other words, it is possible to believe a fetus is a life and act according to that belief, where respecting that moral people can differ on this point and, thus, not want to force it as a rule of law.

Surveys show that most people would never have an abortion but want to keep it legal. That is consistent with how the women I know personally view it. I would say that most people, then, sit exactly where I do: it is a life, but that construction is a matter of personal belief and morality upon which reasonable people may differ and, thus, should not become a matter of law.

The activists I know, however, differ in not accepting that any moral person of well formed conscious could conclude otherwise, or refuse to honor their right to conclude otherwise. As you said, if its murder, its murder. There is no gray allowed.

But I love the shade of gray ;) Many do.


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02 Jan 2010, 12:39 am

I am pro choice 8)



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02 Jan 2010, 1:06 am

Orwell wrote:
this is as absurd as someone telling you that murder should be legal because some people wish to do it and everyone must make a decision based on their own values whether or not they should go around killing people. "If you're opposed to murder, don't kill people" is hardly a satisfactory answer to the problem.


This is a bit of a strawman. The murder of a walking talking human being not only effects the murdered person but also those that interact with them. In this sense it is a totally different concept to abortion. In your argument you are ignoring why murder is so abhorrent to most 'civilised' societies. The fact of the matter is a foetus (technically the foetal stage does not start until week 11) certainly up to the first trimester is not capable of independent life, is not guaranteed a successful gestation, and as far as can be ascertained is not sentient during this stage in gestation. I am concerned about abortion after the first trimester and am not in favour of routine abortion after this time. In Australia abortion is legal until 20 weeks in all states except Tasmania and the two territories where it is restricted to 14 weeks.

The other issue is abortion has and always will be available, the advent of legalised clinics to do the procedure has meant far greater safety to the woman concerned.


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 02 Jan 2010, 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 1:13 am

If humans have souls, so should all animals. Would it be wrong to take your cat in for an abortion simply because you couldn't afford to care for the kittens?


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02 Jan 2010, 1:24 am

Hows this sound: Make a list of all the people who you wish had mothers whose plans included abortion. My list includes Kate Gosselin and Soulja Boy, among others. Oh, and anyone who works as an anchor for corporate news.